Would you buy a "finished" tree?

[Djtommy]

so an "artist" spends a day styling a really cool yamadori, before picture shows an amazing trunk with branches there but not very well placed to make a good picture, he styles it and now you get a very nice image. Does the artist deserve all the credit for his day work or mother nature as she spends 100+ years designing the trunkline?

Bonsai isn’t like a painting whereas you start from scratch and you get to a point that is really finished like in 20 years it will still look the exact same. bonsai is very often not just 1 persons creation and because a show is supposed to be about the tree, there is no need to put the whole background of who ever touched the tree at what time, ask the owner if you want to know.

Although some trees do deserve the history explained but those are trees with a history that goes beyond the looks.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

I think we all look different to trees. They will normally be still living when you die. It's not for nothing the development goes over several generations. I guess we all have a part-time ownership when we acquire a tree. I've seen people buying finished trees and i have seen trees move backward instead of forward. Buying finished trees is (for me) calculating how good you are at keeping those trees healthy and developing. If you don't have experience and/or you don't have someone to guide you it's not a good call to buy it. You need a master with experience with older trees in different stages to take you trough the process.

Another view: You start developing from raw material, from nature... Is it your tree or... ? After several years you have lots of trees, they take more time than you have and you sell some. Are they still your trees? I don't think so, it was not yours to begin with. Like stated somewhere above sometimes you credit the styling or the starts to someone else. A big part of my trees are followed by me and by my master. Is it my tree? Don't know. I care for it.

 

[sorce]

If it had lojack, like say, A Tesla, I'd buy it. Till then it must be no.

But yes. When I know I can keep it alive, and unstolen.....or vandalized.

As for credit. Who cares really. I'm not going to go to a show, enjoy every tree, then try to forget what I felt about one because I found out so and so actually styled it.

If bonsai shows is about people, for arrogant people, It is about the trees for me, as I'm not arrogant.

As for the bung licker taking credit for others' work, he ain't smoking with me. I ain't gotta sleep with em, work for em, F em! Truth is truth no matter what is told. False doesn't exist, so neither does that feeling of accomplishment these people get. They are living an imaginary life. It's sad really. Pecker Jins.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Uh, Sorce? I think you ca make your points without having to use such "colorful" language, even if some of the letters are missing.

 

[Adair M]

When I first started bonsai, I wanted to create all my own trees. And, I was afraid to buy the more developed ones for fear I wouldn't know how to keep it. As I have progressed, I see things differently.

Now, I consider myself a temporary caretaker. I might own these for a year, two, a decade, or for the rest of my life, but that's only temporary. A short time in the lifetime of a tree. Eventually, someone else will be taking care of these trees.

 

[Cadillactaste]

If (1) I really liked the tree, (2) thought it was reasonably priced, and (3) felt it was a species I could manage in my conditions (and with my experience level)...yes, I would buy the "finished" tree.

I like the idea of developing my own trees from basic stock, but am realizing that can take a fair bit of time. It's nice to have a few more developed trees in the collection.

I think that is it in a nutshell...coming to learn, that one can manage the species without killing it...along with affording it. Having a further along developed tree I see nothing wrong in. For as long as the tree is alive it's a living thing...and will always need some tending more than just fertilizing. So I see a tree as never fully done...But...work in progress...some just further along than others.

I see ones who have been in the hobby for a good many years...and they are really coming into their own. They also see the time they have put into what they have...are doing amazing things. But would want to one day have that show piece...and go for the one "closer to the finished" vision they see to eventually achieve that. It may be finished in the previous owners eyes...but I find it hard to believe that one in the hobby wouldn't at some point find a way to add something that puts a thumbprint of their own on it. For again as long as the tree is living it will need worked to some degree.

 

[Adair M]

I would not. Not because of the issue with owning something I didn't create, to me that would be the reason to own it. Kind of the same reason I lusts after pots of great potters.

But because admittedly I doubt I could properly care for a tree of that caliber. A "finished" tree as I understand requires an intense amount of work knowledge and ability to maintain. I don't have the skills or really even the time. Now if I had all those things I'd gladly take a masters tree to enjoy in my garden.

NY, that's a valid reason for not buying a tree like Godzilla. It is a huge responsibility and commitment.

And it demands a fair commitment of time. Other than watering, trees don't have to be worked every day. But they do need to be checked to make sure they're not being attacked by bugs or fungus. Have the right fertilizer applied at the right time. Get pruned, decandled, repotted, etc. A tree as massive as Godzilla takes a long time to wire, pull needles. Not that it's not enjoyable work! But it does takes a lot of time a couple times of the year.

 

[Adair M]

so an "artist" spends a day styling a really cool yamadori, before picture shows an amazing trunk with branches there but not very well placed to make a good picture, he styles it and now you get a very nice image. Does the artist deserve all the credit for his day work or mother nature as she spends 100+ years designing the trunkline?

Bonsai isn’t like a painting whereas you start from scratch and you get to a point that is really finished like in 20 years it will still look the exact same. bonsai is very often not just 1 persons creation and because a show is supposed to be about the tree, there is no need to put the whole background of who ever touched the tree at what time, ask the owner if you want to know.

Although some trees do deserve the history explained but those are trees with a history that goes beyond the looks.

Djtommy,

Really great bonsai are not created in a day. Even starting with yamadori. The demos we see performed where raw stock is transformed into bonsai is really just the start. Or, even, a stop along the road to bonsai, for even before the demonstration the tree was collected, potted in some manner, allowed to grow and recover it's health, and THEN it gets to be styled in a dramatic demonstration.

But for every one of those, many trees need to be "grown" out. They don't make great demo trees.

 

[William N. Valavanis]

At the U.S. National Bonsai Exhibitions the tree is the important factor. Simply put, the exhibition has and will continue to be organized to show the beauty of bonsai, PERIOD.

It makes no difference where the tree came from nor who created it, as long as its in the United States and is beautiful it is eligible to be displayed.

The U.S. National Bonsai Exhibition is about the beauty of bonsai, NOT people.

Bill

 

[rockm]

FWIW, the collections at the National Arboretum have considered the "who gets credit" and "how to preserve the artists work" questions for quite some time. The trees that were donated by Japan were diplomatic gifts from an ally country. They can't really be redesigned wholesale by going in and hacking limbs off etc. That's kind of insulting and undiplomatic. So the curators of the trees have to approach work on the trees with that in mind.

The arb also doesn't really mess too much with the American trees either. They respect the vision of the last artist the tree came from. Some are icons you can't really mess with--Goshin, for instance, along with all of John Naka's trees. Many people have worked on Naka's trees over the years, sometimes having to react to some big changes in the material.

The tree's donor, age, bonsai training age are displayed on plaques under almost all of the trees there. There is no room for the list of people whose hands the tree may have passed through in its history. With some, like the 390 year-old miyajima pine, that list would be long indeed. Only the last owner is listed on its plaque--Masaru Yamaki.

Things are very different for us everyday bonsai folk, though. We don't have to work with a goal of only preservation. That's a very hard thing to do. Trees evolve even if they're "finished." That "finished" period lasts only about a year, before the tree moves on and the artist has to adapt to, or work towards sometimes subtle, sometimes drastic, changes.

 

[jk_lewis]

Would you care to tell us why not?

DOING (not just owning) bonsai is what makes it most enjoyable for me.

And, as for naming ownership of a displayed tree, Bonsai is not an ego trip for me. As Bill say, I go to exhibits for the trees, not their makers.

 

[erb.75]

I agree with Bill,
To me, it doesn't matter who has styled the tree. The tree is beautiful on its own. I would feel happy to look at something beautiful that brings me closer to nature.

Along the same vein, I think I am much more likely to purchase a tree from a lesser known bonsai artist. I think I will find a tree of comparable quality at a lower price this way. The thing with a big name artist is that you pretty much know you're getting high quality material, so if you don't feel like taking time to shop around and want a nice tree right now, then there you go.

If I had the cash and didn't want the hassle of shopping around, then I'd buy from top people.

Also, I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but it's gosh darn hard to find a really good root over rock....even at bonsai nurseries. They are just more expensive from the get-go and bonsai nurseries don't tend to sell as many of them, because they don't sell that well (because of the extra cost). At least that's been my experience.

I'm growing a root over rock trident right now, and I feel like I have to grow this stuff myself if I want it to look anything like the stuff in DC (see attached). Obviously, these are masterpieces, but I have high aspirations. Most root over rocks are buried beneath the soil so far you can barely tell that there's a rock there. I like the taller rocks that make for dramatic compositions.

 

[erb.75]

do you all think that tridents are the fastest developing trees in my climate zone to do ROR?

 

[PaulH]

I have never bought a "finished" tree. Not because my ego prevents me from doing so, but because I'm poor. I do have some pretty nice trees though,that I've collected as yamadori or bought over the years as rough pre -bonsai
stock. I've had help refining these trees from various professionals including Ryan, Bjorn, Peter Adams, and Peter Tea but I still consider them my work that has been improved with the help of others and have no guilt about showing them as my own. If I could afford to spend thousands on a tree and have a pro spend several days a year at my house working on it I would be happy to do so and proud to show it. Several of my bonsai friends do just this and own the finest trees in my area. When you pay for something it is yours to do as you wish.
The mention of Adair's Jim Gremel cedar and Sawgrass's comments about artistry made me wonder. How is Adair's purchasing the very best trunk, nebari, branches, etc. and refining it any different from Sawgrass buying the very best quality canvas, paints, brushes, etc and putting them together using his art. (which I admire by the way).

 

[Djtommy]

Djtommy,

Really great bonsai are not created in a day. Even starting with yamadori. The demos we see performed where raw stock is transformed into bonsai is really just the start. Or, even, a stop along the road to bonsai, for even before the demonstration the tree was collected, potted in some manner, allowed to grow and recover it's health, and THEN it gets to be styled in a dramatic demonstration.

But for every one of those, many trees need to be "grown" out. They don't make great demo trees.

Hi Adair, yes you are very right, thats the point i want to say,by doing an initial styling the artist can make a big decision as to where to take a tree and he can take credit for that work however, that is nowhere near the end of that trees "art" destination. It takes care and maintenance for many years and is a neverending story.

Someone claiming to deserve credit for a days work styling is as hypocrit as an owner claiming the credit is his.
I dont have any problem with the owners name next to a great bonsai at a show, this namecard means just that you know, he is the owner.nothing to do with who created it. If that tree wins, well his tree won, its not about who made it,but how it looks.

Imagine a bonsai of over 200+ years old. Its been in a pot for 100+ years. That is not the work of 1 man anymore. It would be a shame if the owner never showed it because he felt like it was not his work.

Those guys in suits smoking cigars while there trees are being judged dont even thing about claiming those trees are their work, they just want to have the nicest trees to show off but in the end it's still the trees that are being judged, not the owner or creators.

Growing out your own, styling it yourself andmaking a nice bonsai all yourself is mostly about selfsatisfaction, nothing wrong with that though. It feels good.

And bonsai as art... Well, for sure you have real artists doing bonsai, however the majority are not artists, they are just doing bonsai and aint nothing wrong with that either.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

...they just want to have the nicest trees to show off but in the end it's still the trees that are being judged, not the owner or creators.

Well-said. I can't recall anyone saying they strive to spend time, effort and money to have bad trees.

 

[JudyB]

Ok, here is a real world, non-hypothetical example of what is being talked about. I bought a tree very recently from Don Blackmond. It's more "finished" than any tree I've ever purchased. Actually there have been a couple of trees that I have passed on, because they didn't leave enough room for me to work on it. If I really fell in love with a really developed tree, and had the cash I might buy it, but I'd probably take the money and buy two that have the same potential, but were not quite there. But I've long looked for a ume with a great trunk, and here it was, so I went for it.

So here is the tree, it's a small ume.
I searched for and bought a new (perfect) pot for it, repotted, cleaned the trunk and worked the deadwood. Also I have wired the new growth, and a little of the old growth. I am thinking of entering this with my local club in the MABA show this year.

Is this my tree? Have I done enough for it to be "mine"? Should this not be shown as it's too recent to me? I think that the pot adds very much to the image, and completes the tree. There will not be much more development on this tree to do, except for grafting and maintenance, and wiring. (And ENJOYING!) But it sure is healthy, and I had a hand in that too.

I don't have a problem feeling like I've contributed to the tree, and you all know that I'm extremely open about where I get my great trees from. Don has been a great vendor to me, and I'm happy to pass along the information that he was a part of the provenance of the tree. He may prosper from this, and in turn I will too. No secrets there.

So what say you? My tree? Should it not be shown as my tree? Pictures of it as purchased, and currently. Let's hear your opinion on this.

 

[coh]

You know, this may come off as a little harsh, but it's how this thread is making me feel.

Judy, does your club show have any rules about tree ownership? About how long you need to own a tree before you put it in a show? If not, then what is difference. It is your tree, you purchased it. If it's worth showing, and there are no rules that prohibit it from being in this show, just show it.

When I go to shows I want to see good trees. I'd rather see a good tree that the owner just purchased than a room full of projects.

 

[Adair M]

Well, I have a mix of trees. Some I've developed from raw stock, some I've purchased that were "on their way", and some that were better than anything I had ever had before I bought them.

I've been doing bonsai for more than 40 years. I've now reached the point where I think it's perfectly acceptable to buy a nice tree, keep it for as long as I enjoy it, then pass it along to someone else to enjoy for a while. In some cases, I might only sell if "something better" was available. I don't want, nor can I take care of hundreds of trees. I'd much rather have a small collection of really nice ones.

 

[Zach Smith]

At the U.S. National Bonsai Exhibitions the tree is the important factor. Simply put, the exhibition has and will continue to be organized to show the beauty of bonsai, PERIOD.

It makes no difference where the tree came from nor who created it, as long as its in the United States and is beautiful it is eligible to be displayed.

The U.S. National Bonsai Exhibition is about the beauty of bonsai, NOT people.

Bill

Well said, Bill. I don't have any feel for the current "show scene" but in years gone by it always seemed bonsai shows were about the people and not the trees. Who had the biggest tree or the biggest carving tool and thus the biggest ... ego. And through it all, the trees cared not one whit. We're just passing through, most of our trees are just passing through, so getting them to the greatest state of beauty and health and keeping them there as long as possible is what it's all about. It's certainly cool to know the source, so if you have a John Naka tree or a Jim Gremel or Ryan Neil then that's awesome, and if you can keep it healthy and beautiful you can feel true pride that you've done your best by the tree. But it's always about the tree, in the end.

Zach