Would you buy a "finished" tree?

Smoke, at the Atlanta Bonsai Show I showed an Atlas Cedar that I had purchased from Jim Gremel. Kathy Shaner was the Judge. It received an Honorable Mention award. It was basically styled by Gremrl, but I did much to prepare it for the show: detail wiring and branch setting, mossing, cleaning and oiling the pot, etc.

Kathy asked where I got it. I replied, "there's only one place to get a tree like this". And she said, "Ah, Gremel!"
 
Adair M said:
Smoke, at the Atlanta Bonsai Show I showed an Atlas Cedar that I had purchased from Jim Gremel. Kathy Shaner was the Judge. It received an Honorable Mention award. It was basically styled by Gremrl, but I did much to prepare it for the show: detail wiring and branch setting, mossing, cleaning and oiling the pot, etc.

Kathy asked where I got it. I replied, "there's only one place to get a tree like this". And she said, "Ah, Gremel!"
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Thats kinda a no brainer. Had it been a black pine....who knows? If it had been a white pine...I know...or a satsuki azalea...I know.


Lets read what you wrote above.

His real contribution - Jim grew a trunk and built a nebari, provided superior taper to a trunk. Built a set of branches in what I surmise were good positions, have taper and things like that. Things that take many years to make and lots of toil and turmoil fighting nature all along the way.

His contribution - basically styled by Gremel
Your contribution - I did much to prepare it for the show: detail wiring and branch setting, mossing, cleaning and oiling the pot, etc.

Let your conscience be your guide, Justin Case
 
I confidently believe the current "owner " should get all the credit and accolades however in describing the tree or any annotation about the tree one should proudly note its origin and developmental history-I think it adds richness to the story of the tree. I own numerous finished trees whose concept and origins were shaped by Nick Lenz. With most of them I really try to keep with the concept because the concept is cool and I love it. Some of them evolve but very slowly.
 
I would not. Not because of the issue with owning something I didn't create, to me that would be the reason to own it. Kind of the same reason I lusts after pots of great potters.

But because admittedly I doubt I could properly care for a tree of that caliber. A "finished" tree as I understand requires an intense amount of work knowledge and ability to maintain. I don't have the skills or really even the time. Now if I had all those things I'd gladly take a masters tree to enjoy in my garden.
 
Adair M said:
Sounds to me that most on this thread WOULD buy finished trees.

And, yes, trees are never "finished". We all know they need continued care and maintenance.

Someone mentioned buying one of Suthin's trees... How long would you call it a "Suthin" tree? A year? Two? Until it needs to be rewired?
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This is an interesting question! If I was going to pony up the cash to buy one of his trees, or one from say Walter Pall, a Ryan Neil... Or Say.. Kimura just to live in fantasy land... Maybe BOON if you we want to use another famous Americna Artist you know Adair.. I would be paying FOR THE NAME as much as the TREE, so it would always BE a Suthing tree. I would not want to DEVALUE it by calling it an "Eric Group tree" because Lord knows none of my trees are worth the tens of thousands of dollars many of these masters charge for a masterpiece of their creation! That would be like buying a Cadillac (or a TESLA perhaps?), ripping off all the emblems and replacing them with Kia logos! Sure, it is the same car (tree) underneath but A Kia (and Eric Group tree) isn't worth 1/4 what a Cadi (Suthin tree) is worth even ISPs the body (trunk), engine (nebari)... Is exactly the same!

So, a "finished" tree- IOW, a nice tree styled by some other Bonsai person nobody has ever heard of? That is a different situation than purchasing from a well known bonsai artist whose connection to the tree alone adds an extra zero (or two) to the price tag/ value. At that point you are collecting with price, value and prestige in mind and it is a situation where you... Want to retain the provenance.
 
Adair M said:
Sorry, ABCarve, I'm not going to "like" your last post!

Lol!!

I don't think you're serious.

Here's the tree I spoke about at Boon's:

View attachment 76316

Here's a picture of me, totally wiped out after removing the wire that Peter Tea had put on two years previous, and pulling needles, and thinning:

View attachment 76317

The tree is nicknamed "Godzilla". All of Boon's advanced students have worked on Gozilla.
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Is this one for sale? Is that what this thread is all about? Let's get this going ebay style- $0.99 to start?!?

Damn, guess I just answered the thread topic- sure as a hell WOULD buy a nice finished tree if money was no object and I really liked it..

That one is a Beauty!
 
Adair M said:
Pierre, you've added a new twist!

Consider this one:

Boon owns a tree he imported from Japan 20 years ago. Over the years, he has worked it many times, but so have many of his students! I've worked on it, I know of at least a dozen others who have worked on it. And I'm sure there's many more of his students I haven't met who have worked on it.

Boon shows the tree fairly often. Who should get the credit?
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I say yes; I would own a "finished" tree, though I enjoy developing "trunk-finished" stock/yamadori into finished bonsai.

Who gets the credit? The owner. And if the owner is straight up, he/she will acknowledge the hand(s) involved.
I dug a kurume azalea in 2002 and styled it with Ben Oki in 2005. 10 years later, I still refer to it as the Ben Oki azalea.
I bought my avatar shimpaku from Don in 2013. It was once styled by Marco Invernizzi, most recently with Bjorn. If it gets accepted into the Cup, it will have my name on it, but it's obviously Bjorn's work. Everyone there will know it, and I'm good with it; proud even.

Adair, I appreciate having the provenance of bonsai trees, so the example you gave would merit a special place in my garden if I was a student and follower of Boon.
 
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I wouldn't, but I would never buy any tree to begin with. Everyone is different. My enjoyment comes from the hunt, finding unique trees in the wild, growing my own, getting the perfect air layer or root cutting to grow. Then gradually shaping it into exactly what I want. That's the only reason I have this hobby and the reason I love it so much. If I didn't go through the entire process and just bought a bonsai tree, I would never feel as if it were truly mine. It would be akin to someone starting a painting, filling in the basic outlines and background, and then me adding the finishing touches and saying I painted it.

I'm not disparaging anyone that doesn't do it this way, but just expressing my mindset regarding bonsai. I'm aware everyone gets something different out of it.
 
Would I buy a finished tree.. Yes. I currently have a few nice trees in my collection. I do work them and style them and add my name to the list before me. I also grow my own trees from stock. To be good at all bonsai or to truly practice bonsai in a higher level I believe you need a variety of trees in your garden. I'm not saying different species but diffrent stages of progress from stumps, to whips, to almost finished, to a few years left, to hey wtf I do to it now trees.

As for who gets credit. Well the owner should always have his name for the credit at the time of showing. Matter if you own it for a day or 20 years. But bonsai is truly a trees story. If your the first, twelve, or last person to work on the tree your name is a part of the trees story. When people talk about there trees I believe a true bonsai artist will enjoy telling the story of the trees they own and how they got to this stage. I believe everyone styling the tree should have credit. If you made a major change then you take credit for that change. If you just keep it alive take the credit. But if some one else styled it say so.

Either way it's all about the trees story. Not so much ours.
 
I would not, but I am glad there are folks who would.

If I did, I would never enter it in a competitive show...I might show it but I would disqualify it from any competition. In spite of what some people think bonsai shows are totally about people...trees are only the medium. When I see a great tree in the show I enjoy looking at it but I want to know how and by who it was developed. Professional bonsai artists play an important role in bonsai and while I may be impressed with their "masterpieces", I am much more impressed by great trees developed and trained by hobbyists.

Adair.... Personally I think your Cedar, in spite of your show prep(surely you can't believe that cleaning the pot, adding moss and a little wire compares to the 20 years of time and effort that was put into that tree prior to you buying it), should not have been competing against hobbyist level trees. Displaying it is fine, we would all like to view it, but when 99+% of the work and time were done by someone else(particularly a professional), my conscience would never let me think it was fair or appropriate to enter in a competition against hobbyists. now, if I were to completely restyle it or if I cared for it for a decade then I would feel differently.

It might not work for every show, but I like the shows in which trees created by professionals have their own category.

I think major shows such as the U.S. National Bonsai show are a different animal than regional and club level shows. You should expect to compete against the best of the best.

I think Justin case's advice, "let your conscience be your guide" is good but we all know that when it becomes a competition there will always be those whose lack personal ethics and will do whatever it takes to win.
 
i would buy yes, why? because i like looking at nice trees, devoloping is surely a fun proces but i still want to see nice trees during development of others.
johng said:
If I did, I would never enter it in a competitive show...I might show it but I would disqualify it from any competition. In spite of what some people think bonsai shows are totally about people...trees are only the medium.
.
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i disagree, bonsaishows is about the trees, i often go to see bonsaishow to see the nice trees, i rarely look at the owner nameplate. only if i really like the tree i would.
 
I would buy a finished tree.
How long before I called it mine? As soon as I handed over the money.
Would I enter it in a show under my name? Yes. It's mine. If anyone asked I would tell them how long I had it or who styled it.
 
Djtommy said:
i would buy yes, why? because i like looking at nice trees, devoloping is surely a fun proces but i still want to see nice trees during development of others.

i disagree, bonsaishows is about the trees, i often go to see bonsaishow to see the nice trees, i rarely look at the owner nameplate. only if i really like the tree i would.
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I suggest buying the DVD "Works of Divinity" by Shinji Suzuki. To watch that and follow his progression on preparing a tree for the most prestigious show in the world, Kokufu, and think that bonsai is about the trees has not seen the movie. The looks on the Master Japanese men in suits standing around while the trees are judged smoking their cigarettes is priceless. It's all about the people, bonsai is all ego, and that you can take to the bank!
 
I think for me what bums me out about this subject is that I see time and time again, trees winning awards at shows, where I and everyone else, actually know that the good majority of the work, if not most was done by someone else. And I kinda feel it's a little shitty.
Not trying to offend here... But perhaps there should be two categories of judging at shows? One where the good majority of the work was done by the actual artist, and another for those who had their tree styled by Bjorn, Neil, Suthin, Boon, etc. etc. etc.

Two things I see happening here... the first is that were are actually creating a whole environment of folks having really cool tree's, but not knowing how to actually create one. Second... In order to actually compete with these trees, one almost has to go out and have their own tree styled by someone as well. It's a little like steroids in sports... One who takes them will always be at an advantage, and those who don't will need to start taking them in order to be on the same level.

For me personally, It is very important for my art to be mine. I would much rather my art be crap, but be my crap, than try and pass of something as mine, and except an award or praise for work I didn't do... That's just me though. I am an artist... not a collector of art.
 
About my Atlas Cedar, and showing it...

The Atlanta club breaks the entries into three levels: Novice, Enthusiast, and Professional. I enter all my trees in the Professional level. I do teach classes. I do not want to compete against the novices and Enthusiasts.

I entered the tree in the show not to win a ribbon, but to share a great tree with others in the club, and the community. It's actually a fairly young tree, maybe 12 years old, still has immature bark, tons of scars on the trunk, etc.

Atlas Cedar is also fairly rare around here, so I thought everyone would enjoy seeing it. I made no claims to having grown the tree from scratch. In fact, many asked where I got it. I told them to call Jim.

About Godzilla...

I have no idea if Boon is willing to sell it or not. It would command a high price if he did sell it. I posted Godzilla because someone said they wanted to carve their initials in it.

Now... About showing:

Isn't the point of showing bonsai to show good bonsai? I mean, you go to a classic car show, there are some cars maintained by the shade tree mechanics, and there are some incredible cars shown by the pros! My daughter used to show horses at a high level. She competed against the pros who pulled their horses in via million dollar trailers!
 
To change to focus a bit, I find that I learn a great deal by studying the trees that I have purchased that were styled by others.

I see art students at the museums copying the great paintings on display. I'm sure they're learning from the experience.

I learn how to create better bonsai by studying the works of others.
 
Sawgrass,

You are a professional artist. You make a living selling your art. What if no one bought it? The public sees your art, and decide that "I can do that", so they don't buy yours but make their own.

Don't forget: you sell to collectors!
 
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