Would you buy a "finished" tree?

[Adair M]

Johng,

Taken literally, you're right. The trees don't care about shows!

 

[Adair M]

About those "cigar smoking Kokofu judges"...

As I understand it, 4 or 5 Finalists are determined by bonsai professionals. The Final "winner" is determined by a panel of Japanese Celebrities. Whether they know anything about bonsai is unknown.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I could either buy more useless $600 textbooks for school, or I could spend that money on something worthwhile, a "finished" ficus. I think we know the winner here...

 

[Eric Group]

I could either buy more useless $600 textbooks for school, or I could spend that money on something worthwhile, a "finished" ficus. I think we know the winner here...

If you were going to school for Bonsai, you could consider them one in the same!

 

[Mudroot]

If you were going to school for Bonsai, you could consider them one in the same!

Bonsai school:

Cool nebari. Now where can I get a pot?
And how long should I wait for a leader to start?

 

[Paradox]

If I had the confidence/experience to know I could keep it alive AND if I had the money to burn then I might buy a finished tree.

I know you wanted us to disregard money but it is part of the equation and I have to consider thatt aspect as well.

 

[Walter Pall]

I do it all the time. It has to do with age also. Besides outright raw material I acquire finished trees a lot these days. And then I finish them. See this ezo spurce which was hanging around in a Japaneese nursery for probably decades. It was fully wired when I acqured it and supposedly finished. But then see what I did in one morning. This is a good example to show how overestimated wiring is. So it was wired and finished. But there was much more in it than was apparant after wiring. Wiring is like laying bricks for a house. The bricklayer thinks he built the house. Did he? Or did the architect?
I spend a real lot of money for such trees., like several grand a piece. But always under the rule that I mus#t get the moeny back if I wanted or much more.

 

[Walter Pall]

That's the final tree at the moment. In a couple of years it will be 'finished`

 

[fore]

Good thread Adair. He'll yes I would, and will prob sooner rather than later. Totally agree about a needed higher level of skill maintaining and further refinement. As well as skill / confidence of keeping trees alive.

 

[DougB]

Shows can be either about the trees OR about power and prestige. In Japan as we all know trees are purchased and then kept and shown by professionals. The owner gets the power and prestige from owning a masterpiece. We do have some shows that are truly about the trees, but then ruin them by giving awards to people and everyone wanting to know who owns that tree. So with rare exception the needs of the human ego overrule all. To bad that our world does not reach a conclusion like the rest of the artistic world, then like a piece of artwork it could be shown with a label. "oil on canvas by XXXXXXXX"

 

[Adair M]

I do it all the time. It has to do with age also. Besides outright raw material I acquire finished trees a lot these days. And then I finish them. See this ezo spurce which was hanging around in a Japaneese nursery for probably decades. It was fully wired when I acqured it and supposedly finished. But then see what I did in one morning. This is a good example to show how overestimated wiring is. So it was wired and finished. But there was much more in it than was apparant after wiring. Wiring is like laying bricks for a house. The bricklayer thinks he built the house. Did he? Or did the architect?
I spend a real lot of money for such trees., like several grand a piece. But always under the rule that I mus#t get the moeny back if I wanted or much more.

Thanks, Walter, for your insight. Wiring is a tool. A means to the end. Not the end itself.

 

[coh]

Shows can be either about the trees OR about power and prestige. In Japan as we all know trees are purchased and then kept and shown by professionals. The owner gets the power and prestige from owning a masterpiece. We do have some shows that are truly about the trees, but then ruin them by giving awards to people and everyone wanting to know who owns that tree. So with rare exception the needs of the human ego overrule all. To bad that our world does not reach a conclusion like the rest of the artistic world, then like a piece of artwork it could be shown with a label. "oil on canvas by XXXXXXXX"

I can think of a number of valid reasons for wanting to know who owns a tree. For instance, maybe I'm trying to grow that species and would like to talk to that person about culture, styling, etc. Or, maybe I like the styling and want to look at other trees that person has styled.

 

[Adair M]

Shows can be either about the trees OR about power and prestige. In Japan as we all know trees are purchased and then kept and shown by professionals. The owner gets the power and prestige from owning a masterpiece. We do have some shows that are truly about the trees, but then ruin them by giving awards to people and everyone wanting to know who owns that tree. So with rare exception the needs of the human ego overrule all. To bad that our world does not reach a conclusion like the rest of the artistic world, then like a piece of artwork it could be shown with a label. "oil on canvas by XXXXXXXX"

DougB,

Most of the shows I've attended have cards identifying the common name of the tree, and usually the Latin name. Sometimes the age and years of training. Judged shows usually have the ribbon or plaque laying next to the tree.

 

[BrianBay9]

Ok, here is a real world, non-hypothetical example of what is being talked about. I bought a tree very recently from Don Blackmond. It's more "finished" than any tree I've ever purchased. Actually there have been a couple of trees that I have passed on, because they didn't leave enough room for me to work on it. If I really fell in love with a really developed tree, and had the cash I might buy it, but I'd probably take the money and buy two that have the same potential, but were not quite there. But I've long looked for a ume with a great trunk, and here it was, so I went for it.

So here is the tree, it's a small ume.
I searched for and bought a new (perfect) pot for it, repotted, cleaned the trunk and worked the deadwood. Also I have wired the new growth, and a little of the old growth. I am thinking of entering this with my local club in the MABA show this year.

Is this my tree? Have I done enough for it to be "mine"? Should this not be shown as it's too recent to me? I think that the pot adds very much to the image, and completes the tree. There will not be much more development on this tree to do, except for grafting and maintenance, and wiring. (And ENJOYING!) But it sure is healthy, and I had a hand in that too.

I don't have a problem feeling like I've contributed to the tree, and you all know that I'm extremely open about where I get my great trees from. Don has been a great vendor to me, and I'm happy to pass along the information that he was a part of the provenance of the tree. He may prosper from this, and in turn I will too. No secrets there.

So what say you? My tree? Should it not be shown as my tree? Pictures of it as purchased, and currently. Let's hear your opinion on this.


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Judy I hope that you're not put off by this discussion, and that you will show the tree at MABA. I plan on driving down to Indianapolis for the show and would love to see it in person. It's fun to hear who styled what and when, but ultimately I just like to look at the trees.

Brian

 

[drew33998]

No. A finished tree is a dead one. I would always like to buy better and better material.

 

[joe44]

Yes I would. I have done it twice many years ago. Two old white pines. After living with these trees and maintaining them as purchased, I noticed changes in both trees that I felt would improve them. I did bring them to the guy I took courses over a few years in the white pines. He agreed to one but had even a better idea for the second tree. I agree that there is always room for improvement.

Look at some Japanese masters that take show trees and completely redesign them. Back in the 90's saw pictures of Masahiko Kimura redesign a very old famous juniper. It was scary to see the progression pics, but in the end it was magnificent.

 

[JudyB]

Judy I hope that you're not put off by this discussion, and that you will show the tree at MABA. I plan on driving down to Indianapolis for the show and would love to see it in person. It's fun to hear who styled what and when, but ultimately I just like to look at the trees.

Brian

Actually Brian, that Ume will be in our club's shohin display rack along with a kingsville box I've had for a long time. I'm not put off by the discussion at all, I wish there had been some people put in their opinions on the issue. Because my point being that the greatest change that I'll probably put on this small tree, I have already done. Because it's a small tree. The wiring I did reshaped it, and giving it a new pot also changed it. After that it's going to be a matter of year by year wiring and maintenance. So to me, this tree is as much mine now as it will be next year when all I'll be doing is care-taking.
I may be there on Saturday, maybe...

 

[anthony burce]

Bonsai to me is "learning and applying incarnate"
The beauty of this hoppy, to me, is my interaction and imposition. I ask the tree and the tree responds. Honestly, the skill and beauty i saw in other persons trees has worn off. My second favorite part of bonsai art is sitting in bed reading article after article, blog after blog, comment after comment, gathering tons of information. I would never buy a styled tree.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Honestly, the skill and beauty i saw in other persons trees has worn off.

I'm sorry you cannot see beauty in others trees. This is very sad and I hope it never happens to me.
It would seem that you must've lost the beauty you see everyday in nature as well.

 

[Bunjeh]

There are two types of people in this bonsai game; collectors and artists.