Why I don't use turface anymore (with pics)

[nathanbs]

Oh I have too and actually the first to post a thread about it here a year ago (that I know). Again, once amended, that problem goes away.

So i think what needs to be added is needs to be amended with similar size aggregates

 

[Poink88]

So i think what needs to be added is needs to be amended with similar size aggregates

I amend with DE (which is similar size). I also use bark which I screen 1/16"-1/2".

Recently (this year), I started adding lava and pumice which are also somewhat similar size. I also use sifted Miracle grow potting soil now (which is mostly bark) and whatever bark I can get (i.e. soil conditioner) from the box stores. My charcoal are fine because it is the kind used in water filters but I am fine with it.

 

[Jester217300]

Don't DE and Turface have essentially the same water absorption / hydrophobic properties?? I think Napa DE is even smaller than Turface from what I've seen but I'm not positive.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I amend with DE (which is similar size). I also use bark which I screen 1/16"-1/2".

Recently (this year), I started adding lava and pumice which are also somewhat similar size. I also use sifted Miracle grow potting soil now (which is mostly bark) and whatever bark I can get (i.e. soil conditioner) from the box stores. My charcoal are fine because it is the kind used in water filters but I am fine with it.

Have you tried a cactus mix? It's a little coarser than regular potting soil.

 

[Poink88]

Don't DE and Turface have essentially the same water absorption / hydrophobic properties?? I think Napa DE is even smaller than Turface from what I've seen but I'm not positive.

Seems like you are right BUT the introduction of it (and other ingredients) breaks the Turface from becoming water repellant.

 

[Poink88]

Have you tried a cactus mix? It's a little coarser than regular potting soil.

I haven't just because what I find here are small packets and end up very expensive unit cost wise.

 

[Jester217300]

Have you tried a cactus mix? It's a little coarser than regular potting soil.

I haven't just because what I find here are small packets and end up very expensive unit cost wise.

It's mostly peat mixed with soil, sand, perlite, and fertilizer. I'd rather add the ingredients individually and have more control over how much of each I'm using.

 

[coh]

It really only boiles down to one argument. Do your trees grow well in the kind of soil mix you are using. The old all time classic one liner: If it ain't broke don't fix it.

And I'll take it one step further - if it is broke, it's not necessarily because turface sucks. Because, whether you (not Vance, speaking in general terms here) like it or not, lots of people are using turface successfully.

 

[Poink88]

And I'll take it one step further - if it is broke, it's not necessarily because turface sucks. Because, whether you (not Vance, speaking in general terms here) like it or not, lots of people are using turface successfully.

True. I had problems with almost pure Turface. Rather than give up on it, I fixed it.

 

[nathanbs]

And I'll take it one step further - if it is broke, it's not necessarily because turface sucks. Because, whether you (not Vance, speaking in general terms here) like it or not, lots of people are using turface successfully.

And I for one am not disputing that. If anything Im trying to help others understand turface better so they can use it successfully as some of you have.

 

[markyscott]

Your turface must be bigger. I just looked at two different bags of MVP and 80% was about 1/16". About 20% was 1/8" maximum.

I've measured the size fractions in samples taken from several different bags of Turface MVP purchased at Ewing Irrigation. They were the same within the margin of error in my measurements. I also measured the same size fractions for double-red line brand akadama (the small size) and domestic pumice purchased from Wee Tree. The measurements are by volume - I took a fixed volume sample size, sieved into size fractions and measured the volume yield by size fraction. Here ya go:

[table="width: 500"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]1/2"-3/8"[/td]
[td]3/8"-1/4"[/td]
[td]1/4"-1/8"[/td]
[td]<1/8"[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]pumice[/td]
[td]29%[/td]
[td]33%[/td]
[td]27%[/td]
[td]11%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]turface[/td]
[td]0%[/td]
[td]4%[/td]
[td]51%[/td]
[td]45%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]akadama[/td]
[td]9%[/td]
[td]43%[/td]
[td]40%[/td]
[td]8%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

These are averages for several samples from different bags. Can't guarantee that they did not all come from the same batch, but the bags were not all purchased at the same time.

I use 3/8"-1/4" for most plants. Water saturations really start to degrade your air-filled porosity in a shallow pot once the grain-size gets much below 1/8". You can combat this by increasing the depth of your container when using a finer-gained medium.

Scott

 

[Poink88]

Thanks Scott.

Your Turface sizing seems to be in line with what I recall the grain sizes I use.

Whether that is good/big enough or not for some is another story.

 

[Gene Deci]

I've measured the size fractions in samples taken from several different bags of Turface MVP purchased at Ewing Irrigation. They were the same within the margin of error in my measurements. I also measured the same size fractions for double-red line brand akadama (the small size) and domestic pumice purchased from Wee Tree. The measurements are by volume - I took a fixed volume sample size, sieved into size fractions and measured the volume yield by size fraction. Here ya go:

[table="width: 500"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]1/2"-3/8"[/td]
[td]3/8"-1/4"[/td]
[td]1/4"-1/8"[/td]
[td]<1/8"[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]pumice[/td]
[td]29%[/td]
[td]33%[/td]
[td]27%[/td]
[td]11%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]turface[/td]
[td]0%[/td]
[td]4%[/td]
[td]51%[/td]
[td]45%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]akadama[/td]
[td]9%[/td]
[td]43%[/td]
[td]40%[/td]
[td]8%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

These are averages for several samples from different bags. Can't guarantee that they did not all come from the same batch, but the bags were not all purchased at the same time.

I use 3/8"-1/4" for most plants. Water saturations really start to degrade your air-filled porosity in a shallow pot once the grain-size gets much below 1/8". You can combat this by increasing the depth of your container when using a finer-gained medium.

Scott

Nice way to do it. Takes care of the shape issue in a way that is meaningful and should be reproducible. I'll take your work as the definitive measurements.

 

[markyscott]

Thanks Scott.

Your Turface sizing seems to be in line with what I recall the grain sizes I use.

Whether that is good/big enough or not for some is another story.

The issue with grain size is all about capillary bound water. Changing the grain size does not change the porosity, but it does change the size of the pores. Smaller pores result from smaller grains and will result in an increase in the height of the saturated zone at the bottom of the pot. The trick comes when we plant trees in shallow pots - having a 1"-2" saturated zone at the bottom of a 3" deep pot significantly shrinks the Goldilocks zone - the zone for optimal root growth that neither dries too quickly due to evaporative loss through the top of the soil nor is too heavily saturated due to capillary effects near the bottom.

Note I said optimal - roots will grow in less than optimal conditions. And in deeper pots or nursery containers it is really not all that important because the saturated zone is such a small fraction of the pot height. If it was, every nursery in America would be growing their stock in the substrate that shall not be named and we'd have stripped the topsoil off the entire country of Japan to grow our tomatoes. Chemical properties aside, you want the air filled porosity to be 10% or greater and the water filled porosity to be 40% or greater (after irrigation and drainage). Lots of different growing media will do that in a nursery can, but it's a bit trickier in a shallow bonsai pot. A strategy is to increase the grain size - not too much as we risk dropping saturations below 40% (so no boulders Dario), but enough to minimize the saturated zone at the bottom of the pot.

Cheers
Scott

 

[edprocoat]

OK, so Turface is something you can grow your plants in and its not the size that matters rather how well you use it ?

ed

 

[markyscott]

OK, so Turface is something you can grow your plants in and its not the size that matters rather how well you use it ?

ed

That's what I keep telling myself - size doesn't matter.

Scott

 

[Poink88]

The issue with grain size is all about capillary bound water. Changing the grain size does not change the porosity, but it does change the size of the pores. Smaller pores result from smaller grains and will result in an increase in the height of the saturated zone at the bottom of the pot. The trick comes when we plant trees in shallow pots - having a 1"-2" saturated zone at the bottom of a 3" deep pot significantly shrinks the Goldilocks zone - the zone for optimal root growth that neither dries too quickly due to evaporative loss through the top of the soil nor is too heavily saturated due to capillary effects near the bottom.

Note I said optimal - roots will grow in less than optimal conditions. And in deeper pots or nursery containers it is really not all that important because the saturated zone is such a small fraction of the pot height. If it was, every nursery in America would be growing their stock in the substrate that shall not be named and we'd have stripped the topsoil off the entire country of Japan to grow our tomatoes. Chemical properties aside, you want the air filled porosity to be 10% or greater and the water filled porosity to be 40% or greater (after irrigation and drainage). Lots of different growing media will do that in a nursery can, but it's a bit trickier in a shallow bonsai pot. A strategy is to increase the grain size - not too much as we risk dropping saturations below 40% (so no boulders Dario), but enough to minimize the saturated zone at the bottom of the pot.

Cheers
Scott

Thanks Scott.

If I encounter that problem, I have a simple fix already...WICK.

 

[BonsaiJack]

I used turface for several years in different types of mixes. Turface is cheap, so why not ? After using it I was not happy with the roots and health of some if my trees. There was some water-logging going on. I have started to switch out the turface to a more uniform mix, and here's why. This is a cup of medium size akadama, lava, pumice and screened turface in equal amounts. After watering the cup about 10-15 times the next pic is the result. See how the turface has dropped to the bottom. There is none in the top half of the cup. If you look closely the very small particles have dropped all the way to the bottom. You can watch them wiggle their way downward as the water goes through. Actually you don't even need water. If you chopstick the dry mix the turface drops out of sight. Same thing happens with small akadama, small lava and small pumice, it takes a little longer, but the turface particle is still not big enough and will drop to the bottom. If it was 2-3 times bigger I would use it.

@ Davetree ... Would it be ok to send you a sample of 1/4 Calcined Montmorillonite Clay to continue your tests? Please PM your address.

Thanks
BonsaiJack

 

[kirk@localbonsai.com]

You guys are thinking too hard - whatever is locally available and affordable, go with it. My mix is probably not perfect, but gets the job done just fine.

http://localbonsai.com/diy-bonsai-soil-a-practical-beginners-guide/

 

[Smoke]

You guys are thinking too hard - whatever is locally available and affordable, go with it. My mix is probably not perfect, but gets the job done just fine.

http://localbonsai.com/diy-bonsai-soil-a-practical-beginners-guide/

To avoid any confusion, bonsai soil does not contain ’soil’, ‘dirt’, ‘peat’, or ‘humus’, at least not in any significant proportion. That’s because organically-derived components don’t provide the drainage or aeration needed to make our trees grow vigorously within the confines of a small pot. The answer, inorganically-derived components! Crushed granite, course sand, perlite, gravel, akadama, fired clay, lava rock, haydite, kitty-litter, the list goes on and on. By adding these players to our bonsai pots, we allow the roots to breath, ahhhhhhhhh, and water to drain away freely. But since inorganics drain so well and contain little or no nutrients, it’s smart to mix them with an organic like pine bark, composted wood chips or high-quality potting soil. In my experience, a mixture ranging from 60:40 to 80:20 (inorganic to organic) works just fine.

Thats the most contradictory paragraph I have ever read.