What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[coh]

Ok, here ya go:

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Adair, thanks very much for taking the time to get those photos. Given the inherent limitations involved in photography and trying to interpret
3-d items in 2 dimensions, and taking into account the fact the tree was styled based on the forward leaning apex...I have to say that there doesn't
appear to be much difference in the perceived density of the apex in the two views. One doesn't really look much different than the other. This leads me
to conclude that the assertion that the "forced perspective" results in a significant improvement of the appearance of the tree by compressing the apex
is not really very important.

I might feel differently if I had the actual tree in front of me (feel free to send it up if you want ) but the photos aren't very supportive of
your argument in my opinion.

Anyway, the original question was whether there were instances where one should or could avoid having the apex lean forward. Obviously on a tree
like this I would not suggest chopping and regrowing the top half of the tree. But...if one is designing a tree from scratch, building up from young
or field grown stock where no forward lean exists, I would say that one could achieve the desired result simply by putting more branches in the apex
(grafting if required) and keeping any forward lean to a minimum. Then the tree would look better from all sides and could more easily be redesigned
or turned if desired.

 

[Adair M]

Adair, thanks very much for taking the time to get those photos. Given the inherent limitations involved in photography and trying to interpret
3-d items in 2 dimensions, and taking into account the fact the tree was styled based on the forward leaning apex...I have to say that there doesn't
appear to be much difference in the perceived density of the apex in the two views. One doesn't really look much different than the other. This leads me
to conclude that the assertion that the "forced perspective" results in a significant improvement of the appearance of the tree by compressing the apex
is not really very important.

I might feel differently if I had the actual tree in front of me (feel free to send it up if you want ) but the photos aren't very supportive of
your argument in my opinion.

Anyway, the original question was whether there were instances where one should or could avoid having the apex lean forward. Obviously on a tree
like this I would not suggest chopping and regrowing the top half of the tree. But...if one is designing a tree from scratch, building up from young
or field grown stock where no forward lean exists, I would say that one could achieve the desired result simply by putting more branches in the apex
(grafting if required) and keeping any forward lean to a minimum. Then the tree would look better from all sides and could more easily be redesigned
or turned if desired.

As I said, go take a walk around Bill Valavanis’s garden. The next Nationals is too far away.

 

[A. Gorilla]

@Bonsai Nut

This is a good thread. It's good when people get worked up. They let it all hang out, and we get to read it.

Good forum.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I must admit...the trees on my bench is mediocre to Adair's quality pine. It's hard to find fault with such quality pieces...when my own is very lacking. Seems...wrong almost to judge another man's specimen trees like I have better. Yet his pines have been dissected to bits...over a lean that he willingly shared a great example with us. Who never seen more than a 2D tree. Hearing many in shows offer the same tilt...seems foolish to argue. Still want to see quality trees that lean away from the viewer...wasn't that what this about?

 

[coh]

I must admit...the trees on my bench is mediocre to Adair's quality pine. It's hard to find fault with such quality pieces...when my own is very lacking. Seems...wrong almost to judge another man's specimen trees like I have better. Yet his pines have been dissected to bits...over a lean that he willingly shared a great example with us.

Adair posted his tree to support a specific argument. If you do that, chances are it will be dissected to see if the argument holds. It's not disrespectful (at least from my view), it's a discussion. This is a discussion forum.

Who never seen more than a 2D tree.

What?

Hearing many in shows offer the same tilt...seems foolish to argue. Still want to see quality trees that lean away from the viewer...wasn't that what this about?

No, it was not about showing great trees that lean away. It was about not having trees lean forward. There's a difference.

 

[bonsaichile]

Still want to see quality trees that lean away from the viewer...wasn't that what this about?

That's the key, I think, @Cadillactaste. @Adair M not only explained his point, he also backed it up with two wonderful examples. Yet a couple people kept arguing against it without having anything to show for it. I guess talk is cheap. The exception was @Smoke, who put up some trees for us to see. Although I don't always agree with him or like his form, I must say I have learned a lot about this topic (apexes) by reading the back and forth between him and @Adair M !

 

[Cadillactaste]

Adair posted his tree to support a specific argument. If you do that, chances are it will be dissected to see if the argument holds. It's not disrespectful (at least from my view), it's a discussion. This is a discussion forum.

What? 2D photos online. One never sees a side perspective.


No, it was not about showing great trees that lean away. It was about not having trees lean forward. There's a difference.

What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?


I still see a tree that has an apex go toward the viewer..level if not as dramatic as Adair's. Guess I will have to take a better look at Al's trees. Honestly a tree that doesn't lean in...seems off in my mind's eye.

 

[Cadillactaste]

That's interesting...going back...the trees that seem to have more depth of Al's...have more of a lean than the ones that don't. I had thought when I first seen them...some were more appealing than others to my eye.

 

[0soyoung]

No, it was not about showing great trees that lean away. It was about not having trees lean forward. There's a difference.

Reading the title of the thread, I would say the original question is whether it can be done and still have a good bonsai. The tentative answer seems to be never. So, IMHO, the discussion has turned to whether angling the tree toward the viewer can (or is maybe too often) overdone.

I must admit...the trees on my bench is mediocre to Adair's quality pine. It's hard to find fault with such quality pieces...when my own is very lacking. Seems...wrong almost to judge another man's specimen trees like I have better. Yet his pines have been dissected to bits...over a lean that he willingly shared a great example with us. Who never seen more than a 2D tree. Hearing many in shows offer the same tilt...seems foolish to argue. Still want to see quality trees that lean away from the viewer...wasn't that what this about?

This sounds childish. All bonsai belongs to someone. Analyzing and criticizing it is not a judgement of the owner. Adair has nice trees for our discussion. We thank him for his pix of his trees and participation, but I don't think any of us are talking about him (but disagree if I'm misrepresenting your view).



So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Reading the title of the thread, I would say the original question is whether it can be done and still have a good bonsai. The tentative answer seems to be never. So, IMHO, the discussion has turned to whether angling the tree toward the viewer can (or is maybe too often) overdone.

This sounds childish. All bonsai belongs to someone. Analyzing and criticizing it is not a judgement of the owner. Adair has nice trees for our discussion. We thank him for his pix of his trees and participation, but I don't think any of us are talking about him (but disagree if I'm misrepresenting your view).



So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer.

View attachment 226148

It just seemed one over analyzed more than the rest...like it was personal. Like...Stacey Allen posts...that I must admit...I didn't read all.

Yeah, the pigeon breast...is it that it is appearing poking at viewer? The lower branches extends to the viewer.

 

[JudyB]

So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer.

View attachment 226148

Ok I'll finally bite on this one.
It's a wonderful tree obviously, but I keep wanting to see the other side. It feels like we are seeing the back of the tree in this image. So I guess that makes it obvious that away is just not what our mind wants to see.

 

[coh]

So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer.

View attachment 226148

This image does give me the feeling that the tree is moving away but it doesn't bother me at all. But it's tough to tell from a photo. The very highest point in
the tree appears to be right over the trunk but there is that mysterious area in the back left that might actually be the tallest point (could be photo distortion).
Gives me the feeling of a massive old tree.

Maybe I like it because it is different.

There have been times when I've been walking around the National shows and it starts to feel like all the trees are too similar. Similar
foliage masses, apex leans forward, perfect taper. Give me something a little different!

 

[coh]

Ok I'll finally bite on this one.
It's a wonderful tree obviously, but I keep wanting to see the other side. It feels like we are seeing the back of the tree in this image. So I guess that makes it obvious that away is just not what our mind wants to see.

Is that a bad thing, or a good thing? Sometimes a little mystery helps spice things up

 

[A. Gorilla]

Ok I'll finally bite on this one.
It's a wonderful tree obviously, but I keep wanting to see the other side. It feels like we are seeing the back of the tree in this image. So I guess that makes it obvious that away is just not what our mind wants to see.

Thanks. Now I can't unsee that.

 

[bonsaichile]

I also feel the urge to turn that tree 180 degrees. It is cleaely designed with that view as it front, though. It is a wonderful tree, but it gives me the same feeling than standing in front of someone who are showing me their back: i want them to turn around so.I can speak to their faces.

 

[0soyoung]

Bobby posted a 360 video of his tree on Instagram - hopefully this link works for all, here

 

[bonsaichile]

Bobby posted a 360 video of his tree on Instagram - hopefully this link works for all, here

Thank you for posting that video. What a beautiful tree! I love the pads. After seeing it, I am not sure if it leans backwards or is it just an effect of the branch position. It is hard to see the upper part of the trunk.

 

[Adair M]

Reading the title of the thread, I would say the original question is whether it can be done and still have a good bonsai. The tentative answer seems to be never. So, IMHO, the discussion has turned to whether angling the tree toward the viewer can (or is maybe too often) overdone.

This sounds childish. All bonsai belongs to someone. Analyzing and criticizing it is not a judgement of the owner. Adair has nice trees for our discussion. We thank him for his pix of his trees and participation, but I don't think any of us are talking about him (but disagree if I'm misrepresenting your view).



So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer.

View attachment 226148

0so, you really can’t tell from that view. Yes, it appears to be a nice tree. Is that the best front? Perhaps not!

Perhaps the left side just might be a better front! Can’t say for sure without having the tree in front of me.

 

[Vance Wood]

Reading the title of the thread, I would say the original question is whether it can be done and still have a good bonsai. The tentative answer seems to be never. So, IMHO, the discussion has turned to whether angling the tree toward the viewer can (or is maybe too often) overdone.

This sounds childish. All bonsai belongs to someone. Analyzing and criticizing it is not a judgement of the owner. Adair has nice trees for our discussion. We thank him for his pix of his trees and participation, but I don't think any of us are talking about him (but disagree if I'm misrepresenting your view).



So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer.

View attachment 226148

The subject of the Pigeon breast is something I believe should be talked about. What is it and why is it so bad??

 

[Adair M]

Here’s a picture of two apprentices, Julian and Kaya, at the Green Club at Kokofu. Look behind Kaya, at the trees on the right. Since the photo is taken at a bit of an angle to those trees, you can see they definitely have a forward lean.

Cheers!

(It looks cold at Kokofu this year!)