What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[rockm]

"So back to the challenge. Here is a mountain hemlock by CascadiaBonsai that I think to be fabulous. It has the forbidden pigeon breast and I think it will be interesting to hear why it is not perceived to be going away from the viewer."

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The deal with this tree is that it is collected. Very little can be fundamentally changed with the trunk. It is what it is. I happen to think it looks odd and unstable in its current placement--pigeon breast included, along with the narrowing of the trunk at the twist...

I can't help but wonder if there isn't a better "front" going on with the nebari underneath that umbrella of foliage... Would be nice to see the OTHER side of the tree and the sides...

 

[BackyardBonsai]

Here’s a picture of two apprentices, Julian and Kaya, at the Green Club at Kokofu. Look behind Kaya, at the trees on the right. Since the photo is taken at a bit of an angle to those trees, you can see they definitely have a forward lean.

Cheers!

(It looks cold at Kokofu this year!)

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They look silly from the side. Trees are 3 dimensional object so why it should only look good from one side?

 

[Cadillactaste]

They look silly from the side. Trees are 3 dimensional object so why it should only look good from one side?

One of the most prestigious bonsai shows in Japan...maybe you can school them on how to design trees. Us Westerners...could teach them a few things. Lol sorry...I found it slightly amusing. Maybe Mr. Valavanis is right...we wish to change bonsai to our vision...away from the more traditional styles. Maybe we should call it by another name. (Referring to his video interview with Ryan Neil. Found in the video section on Facebook of "Bonsai Mirai" page.) Now that I am looking for it...I see trees leaning forward in the video as well. If we plan on changing it...Japan changed the name when they added their twist to China's penjing.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

One of the most prestigious bonsai shows in Japan...maybe you can school them on how to design trees. Us Westerners...could teach them a few things. Lol sorry...I found it slightly amusing. Maybe Mr. Valavanis is right...we wish to change bonsai to our vision...away from the more traditional styles. Maybe we should call it by another name. (Referring to his video interview with Ryan Neil. Found in the video section on Facebook of "Bonsai Mirai" page.) Now that I am looking for it...I see trees leaning forward in the video as well. If we plan on changing it...Japan changed the name when they added their twist to China's penjing.

Do you agree with the statement I made or not? I could careless about what show these trees display at. Just because the Japanese did it that way, doesn't mean everyone have to blindly follow it without asking questions. We have eyes and brain so we can see and decide what is better.... Don't ask me to show my trees. You don't need to have any tree to see how silly these look.

 

[rockm]

They look silly from the side. Trees are 3 dimensional object so why it should only look good from one side?

Because bonsai ARE MEANT TO BE VIEWED FROM THEIR FRONTS, not from the SIDE. This is of course, a sliding scale for us bonsaiists. If you want to aim for a bonsai that is meant to be seen from all angels, by all means do it. This is a very old argument, BTW.

The trees that try to split the difference with multiple viewing angles typically wind up with designs that have multiple compromised designs. Trees in nature DO NOT CARE what angle they're viewed from (and BTW have all kinds of things that aren't optimized for human appreciation). Bonsai are created by humans for viewing by other humans. As such, optimal viewing angles are part and parcel of what any artist looks for. The statue of David has an optimal viewing angle, as does the Statue of Liberty. The sides of both are interesting, but the money view is from the front, where the artists have placed their most dramatic features...

 

[bonsaichile]

Are you really saying that those trees behind the apprentice

Do you agree with the statement I made or not? I could careless about what show these trees display at. Just because the Japanese did it that way, doesn't mean everyone have to blindly follow it without asking questions. We have eyes and brain so we can see and decide what is better.... Don't ask me to show my trees. You don't need to have any tree to see how silly these look.

I think you should get yoyr eyes checked if you think that those trees behind the apprentices look "silly." ?

 

[coh]

Those of you who are so against "old arguments" do realize that without people revisiting "old arguments" and questioning why things are done, we wouldn't have impressionist art or anything that
followed it. In fact, we'd still be living in caves and scratching stick figures into granite.

 

[rockm]

Those of you who are so against "old arguments" do realize that without people revisiting "old arguments" and questioning why things are done, we wouldn't have impressionist art or anything that
followed it. In fact, we'd still be living in caves and scratching stick figures into granite.

Didn't say they shouldn't be revisited, only that this line of thinking is not all that original or groundbreaking. The "conclusion" back then is the same now--"do what you want. A single viewing angle is probably best, but a tree with multiple "optimal" angles is great, if you can find one"

 

[bonsaichile]

Those of you who are so against "old arguments" do realize that without people revisiting "old arguments" and questioning why things are done, we wouldn't have impressionist art or anything that
followed it. In fact, we'd still be living in caves and scratching stick figures into granite.

Yes, but those artists questioned old arguments from a position of knowledge (i.e., they could reproduce the tecniques they found boring or outdated; they had a technical understanding of their arts and crafts). Most of what we have said here comes from ignorance, IMHO

 

[BackyardBonsai]

I feel like you guys are so close minded. It is silly to say.... Sorry you have to be standing here to see my tree. If that is the case then why don't you have a 3 sided box so the faults of the tree is not visible in all the shows? Before you judge others, please look at yourself.... Blindly followed what "masters" tell you is a big problem with many I see here.

 

[coh]

Yes, but those artists questioned old arguments from a position of knowledge (i.e., they could reproduce the tecniques they found boring or outdated; they had a technical understanding of their arts and crafts). Most of what we have said here comes from ignorance, IMHO

I've seen your previous posts on this subject and IMHO, they seem to come from a position of ignorance. You also seem to like to make a lot of assumptions about other posters.
Have you ever been to a national level bonsai show and seen some of these trees in person? Have you walked down the aisles and seen how ridiculous some of them look
from anything other than that narrowly defined "front"? I've been to 5 of the 6 national shows, have been on the set up and photo crews...I've seen these kinds of trees up close and personal.

Tell us about your background and bonsai experience - if you dare.

 

[Anthony]

Most Sculpture looks best from one side - the front.

See the Pieta.

Loved, [ @rockm ] , the image, wouldn't change anything.
Thank you.
Reminds me of an island with a solitary tree.
Happy to be alone.

Or a cloud that just floats contentedly.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[rockm]

I feel like you guys are so close minded. It is silly to say.... Sorry you have to be standing here to see my tree. If that is the case then why don't you have a 3 sided box so the faults of the tree is not visible in all the shows? Before you judge others, please look at yourself.... Blindly followed what "masters" tell you is a big problem with many I see here.

Jeez, REALLY. We're slaves to "masters?" Dude, I don't listen to much of anybody. I don't have "idols" per se, I have people that I respect. I sometimes don't follow my own advice. Seems to me, you've for a a little "Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" thing going on.

Most all of my trees would hardly be judged as "classical" I have (and have had) a couple of trees sourced from Japan with the "forward lean" The tilt DOES work in their favor.

Trees:

 

[Dav4]

I feel like you guys are so close minded. It is silly to say.... Sorry you have to be standing here to see my tree. If that is the case then why don't you have a 3 sided box so the faults of the tree is not visible in all the shows? Before you judge others, please look at yourself.... Blindly followed what "masters" tell you is a big problem with many I see here.

I suspect you haven't been involved in bonsai for very long. If you stick around long enough, I bet your thoughts will change on this, as it's already a difficult prospect to make a tree look good from only one perspective. Creating a tree with more then one possible front is very difficult, though not impossible. Fwiw, I always design my trees with the hope that they look good from multiple sides... but there's always a primary front. Anyway, I think it's a good idea to learn to walk before trying to run.

 

[davetree]

“I sometimes don’t follow my own advice.”

That is funny and profound at the same time. And honest.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

Jeez, REALLY. We're slaves to "masters?" Dude, I don't listen to much of anybody. I don't have "idols" per se, I have people that I respect. I sometimes don't follow my own advice. Seems to me, you've for a a little "Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" thing going on.

Most all of my trees would hardly be judged as "classical" I have (and have had) a couple of trees sourced from Japan with the "forward lean" The tilt DOES work in their favor.

Trees:

You are WAY off the topic here. By "masters", I have no connection to what you are referring to. Why don't you take a deep breath and think about what I said. Why would you want to create a tree that only look good on one side? Granted that one side will be best but other sides should not look silly as most masterpieces we have seen.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

I suspect you haven't been involved in bonsai for very long. If you stick around long enough, I bet your thoughts will change on this, as it's already a difficult prospect to make a tree look good from only one perspective. Creating a tree with more then one possible front is very difficult, though not impossible. Fwiw, I always design my trees with the hope that they look good from multiple sides... but there's always a primary front. Anyway, I think it's a good idea to learn to walk before trying to run.

Dav,
This is something I can live with. The idea of only having one 'good' side is what got me.

 

[rockm]

You are WAY off the topic here. By "masters", I have no connection to what you are referring to. Why don't you take a deep breath and think about what I said. Why would you want to create a tree that only look good on one side? Granted that one side will be best but other sides should not look silly as most masterpieces we have seen.

Dude. Have you ever tried to create a bonsai with multiple "viewing sides" or are you just working from theory?

And FWIW, here's your quote
"I feel like you guys are so close minded. It is silly to say.... Sorry you have to be standing here to see my tree. If that is the case then why don't you have a 3 sided box so the faults of the tree is not visible in all the shows? Before you judge others, please look at yourself.... Blindly followed what "masters" tell you is a big problem with many I see here."

 

[BackyardBonsai]

Dude. Have you ever tried to create a bonsai with multiple "viewing sides" or are you just working from theory?

And FWIW, here's your quote
"I feel like you guys are so close minded. It is silly to say.... Sorry you have to be standing here to see my tree. If that is the case then why don't you have a 3 sided box so the faults of the tree is not visible in all the shows? Before you judge others, please look at yourself.... Blindly followed what "masters" tell you is a big problem with many I see here."

Masters in that sentence referring to the pros... Apprenticed in Japan or not. I guess you always connect that word with slavery. That is your thinking... Not mine.

 

[rockm]

Masters in that sentence referring to the pros... Apprenticed in Japan or not. I guess you always connect that word with slavery. That is your thinking... Not mine.

Uh, it couldn't be the way you put "look at yourself...Blindly following what "master"... Yeah, it's me