What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[Adair M]

Ran across this blog post from Bill Valavanis on his trip to this year's Kokufu Exhibition in Japan at the beginning of the month.

Scroll down to the "A Private Visit to Omiya Bonsai Village" and look about ten photos in for the photo of the trident in the "blue container" Also look at the trees on the benches overhead shots of the nursery--Notice anything familiar about many of them--FORWARD LEAN....
https://valavanisbonsaiblog.com/

To save others the effort of search thru Bill’s blog, here is the picture RockM is referencing:



Please note that this is the side view. The front is on the left.

The trunk starts off moving away from the viewer, then about 1/3 up, it starts moving forward. The highest point of the tree is just in front of the trunk, above the wonderful nebari.

Just like my pine:



So, the burning question is...

Do I have a maple shaped pine? Or is that a pine shaped maple? Lol!!!

By the way, Bill’s blog is excellent. Very much worth the time to study.

 

[0soyoung]

And, do we note that this point where the trunk changes direction should be approximately eye-level when properly displayed?

 

[rockm]

Perhaps the idea is to look at your native trees and build
your designs off of them,
The Oriental view, you build on, but some form of informed
mental growth should take place.

Your own standards and perhaps a different way of seeing
that is neither a copy or a reaction.
An evolution.
Good Day
Anthony

Jeez...This IS NOT an "Oriental View" it is SIMPLE OPTICS--EVERYONE'S brain processes things the same way. Optical illusions work on Western, Eastern, Southern, Northern brains the same way. Forced perspective and foreshortening

To save others the effort of search thru Bill’s blog, here is the picture RockM is referencing:

View attachment 228094

Please note that this is the side view. The front is on the left.

The trunk starts off moving away from the viewer, then about 1/3 up, it starts moving forward. The highest point of the tree is just in front of the trunk, above the wonderful nebari.

Just like my pine:

View attachment 228095

So, the burning question is...

Do I have a maple shaped pine? Or is that a pine shaped maple? Lol!!!

By the way, Bill’s blog is excellent. Very much worth the time to study.

Bill's blog is always, always a great read, particularly when he's at Kokufu. Interesting stuff just pops out--like this gem from his post on the suiseki exposition a couple of days ago:

"I found it interesting that in 1934 museum officials did not originally want to display bonsai because they were “dirty” with soil and “smelly” from organic fertilizers. That was the main reason soil needed to be 100% covered in green moss."

So, moss is to keep the dirt smell down...

 

[Anthony]

@rockm ,

if you are studying /drawing a tree's shape, one normally stands
back far enough to see tge whole tree.
So the tree never ends up with that bowing towards you
effect, often seen with photos.

Just wondering if this is the one eye seeing of a camera
coming into use in say, Japan.
Then being translated into a guideline.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Jeez...This IS NOT an "Oriental View" it is SIMPLE OPTICS--EVERYONE'S brain processes things the same way. Optical illusions work on Western, Eastern, Southern, Northern brains the same way. Forced perspective and foreshortening

Bill's blog is always, always a great read, particularly when he's at Kokufu. Interesting stuff just pops out--like this gem from his post on the suiseki exposition a couple of days ago:

"I found it interesting that in 1934 museum officials did not originally want to display bonsai because they were “dirty” with soil and “smelly” from organic fertilizers. That was the main reason soil needed to be 100% covered in green moss."

So, moss is to keep the dirt smell down...

Lol!!!

Anthony has a warped perceptive of the goals of bonsai.

Part of his confusion is he wants to apply principles of Chinese Penjing to Japanese Bonsai. Then, THAT’s mixed in with his experience of living in Trinidad where tropical trees grow quickly, but are generally not long lived. All those influences put together makes his perspective rather limiting. And unfortunately, he tends to rely on old books as his source of information. Even while posting here. He tends to disregard the modern techniques that BVF, MarkyScott, and myself share here in favor of stuff that was done 50 years ago.

I have been patiently trying to educate Anthony, yet he seems To have the attitude of “that won’t work here”.

Alas...

 

[Adair M]

@rockm ,

if you are studying /drawing a tree's shape, one normally stands
back far enough to see tge whole tree.
So the tree never ends up with that bowing towards you
effect, often seen with photos.

Just wondering if this is the one eye seeing of a camera
coming into use in say, Japan.
Then being translated into a guideline.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony, you often reference the study of Art and Painting to develop Design of trees.

Please, research the concept of “forced perspective”.

I believe you will be enlightened.

 

[Anthony]

@Adair M ,

Sifu,
you need to understand, that all of the trees done down here are
designed from distance viewing.
As one would draw a tree for entry into a painting.

Not one has the perpective being discussed here.

I believe on our side we moved onto the Fine Art way of seeing
Bonsai.

Has to do with how K was trained, as a European painter.
Wishing you well.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M ,

Sifu,
you need to understand, that all of the trees done down here are
designed from distance viewing.
As one would draw a tree for entry into a painting.

Not one has the perpective being discussed here.

I believe on our side we moved onto the Fine Art way of seeing
Bonsai.

Has to do with how K was trained, as a European painter.
Wishing you well.
Good Day
Anthony

So, you’re applying 2 Dimensional techiniques on a 3 Dimensional art form?

Bonsai aren’t viewed from afar.

All your objections are based upon a false impression of what you are doing!

 

[Adair M]

So, you’re applying 2 Dimensional techiniques on a 3 Dimensional art form?

Bonsai aren’t viewed from afar.

All your objections are based upon a false impression of what you are doing!

And another point, Anthony, bonsai are only 3Dimensional for a brief moment. Trees are constantly growing, changing. They are NOT static. So, in a sense, they are 4 Dimensional! With Time being the fourth dimension. Whenever we work with a tree, we must be aware that in 6 months, it will be different. Heck, when trees are about to bloom, they will look very different in a week or two!

Your whole concept of drawing the tree, and growing it out to meet that design is fundamentally flawed, for even if you were to achieve it, what about 6 months later? Trees aren’t static. A hologram might show it as it looks for one moment in time, but the tree lives in 4 Dimensions.

Your mind is closed, Anthony.

Open it.

 

[Anthony]

@Adair M ,

Sifu,

different philosophies.

Plus, this is more akin to Sculpture in Oil Painting as was done
by Tiiziano or Giorgione or Rubens........................
When you watch the whole tree, it involves Mass, Negative Space,
Positive Space, Composition, Form etc...........

An idealised idea.

Yes, they do change, which is why we use a generalised shape.

Allows greater flexibilty in caring for tree [ enhanced Health ].

To show mastery of your technique ------- I can draw it and sculpt
it to what I have drawn and it is HEALTHY.

You would sniff the paint and miss it all - apologies - just teasing
you.
Thanks for responding
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

Jeez...This IS NOT an "Oriental View" it is SIMPLE OPTICS--EVERYONE'S brain processes things the same way. Optical illusions work on Western, Eastern, Southern, Northern brains the same way. Forced perspective and foreshortening

Bill's blog is always, always a great read, particularly when he's at Kokufu. Interesting stuff just pops out--like this gem from his post on the suiseki exposition a couple of days ago:

"I found it interesting that in 1934 museum officials did not originally want to display bonsai because they were “dirty” with soil and “smelly” from organic fertilizers. That was the main reason soil needed to be 100% covered in green moss."

So, moss is to keep the dirt smell down...

Interesting how moss covering come about!

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M ,

Sifu,

different philosophies.

Plus, this is more akin to Sculpture in Oil Painting as was done
by Tiiziano or Giorgione or Rubens........................
When you watch the whole tree, it involves Mass, Negative Space,
Positive Space, Composition, Form etc...........

An idealised idea.

Yes, they do change, which is why we use a generalised shape.

Allows greater flexibilty in caring for tree [ enhanced Health ].

To show mastery of your technique ------- I can draw it and sculpt
it to what I have drawn and it is HEALTHY.

You would sniff the paint and miss it all - apologies - just teasing
you.
Thanks for responding
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony, this last post of yours is pure horse feathers.

And you know it.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

remember, viewing is done 3 times the greatest length of the
tree, Height/Width or other.

Thanks for not cursing.
Respectfully
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

Sifu,

remember, viewing is done 3 times the greatest length of the
tree, Height/Width or other.

Thanks for not cursing.
Respectfully
Anthony

Anthony, are you sure you’re not a politician? I’ve never seen so much dodging, avoidance, or denying the facts!

Bonsai is styled to convey an image. An image we we with our eyes as interpreted by our brains.

When we stand in front of a bonsai on display, we DON’T perceive the forward lean. We PERCEIVE an upright tree! The forward lean enhances the viewing experience, to make it appear to be smaller than it actually is.

You can rant and rave and deny all you want. But the fact remains the best bonsai in the world, as evidenced by being Kokofu-ten winners, all have a forward lean.

I’m done arguing this point with you.

 

[Anthony]

Ah Sifu,

was I arguing or trying to explain, that we approach Bonsai
with different philosophies ?

As usual thank you for chatting.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I have always heard that the apex should be brought back toward the viewer. It’s in the rules. When styling my upright trees I will comply.
When a tree is a cascade or semi cascade- how does the rule apply then?
If there is no apex- does it become the first growth on the branch???
Because there are trees with no apex.
Not my tree- lol

 

[0soyoung]

I have always heard that the apex should be brought back toward the viewer. It’s in the rules. When styling my upright trees I will comply.
When a tree is a cascade or semi cascade- how does the rule apply then?
If there is no apex- does it become the first growth on the branch???
Because there are trees with no apex.

The foliage should reach toward the viewer, like a person offering you a hand up, or present a "stairway to heaven".

 

[Forsoothe!]

Or a beggar? "Got 5 bucks for a cup of joe, fella?"

 

[0soyoung]

Or a beggar? "Got 5 bucks for a cup of joe, fella?"

If it is a poor bonsai, that could be.

 

[Adair M]

I have always heard that the apex should be brought back toward the viewer. It’s in the rules. When styling my upright trees I will comply.
When a tree is a cascade or semi cascade- how does the rule apply then?
If there is no apex- does it become the first growth on the branch???
Because there are trees with no apex.
Not my tree- lol
View attachment 230110

There’s an apex to the foliage.

I have a little semicascade JBP similiar to that, and the apex moves to the front. I’ll photograph it tomorrow.