What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

I'll just say this about the whole thing. A tree with a huge forward tilt over a period of many years is because the apex of the canopy requires the most yearly work. It is the area that receives much of the nipping and pruning all thru the year. We are constantly taking forward branches and training them as new leaders, cutting others in the back so the cut is not seen and wiring forward for best view. Just think about that for a minute. If you only work with forward branching and add as little as an eighth of inch of forward movement twice or even possibly three times a year, soon a couple inches of forward movement is added to the apex over four or five years. Leave alone 50 years....come on.

We only see this phenomenon on pine tree styled shapes and with an apex that comes to a point. We don't see it much on full canopied maples or elms or trees with a more rounded top on the canopy.

The scars from three large chops show quite well on the BACK of the trunk forcing the forward slant. It doesn't have to be built this way, it is built this way out of necessity. You can't make a tapering apex with out chopping and choosing new leaders. We choose the leaders based on our front view. Done multiple times over many years and you end of with this leaning gnome apex. Nothing hard to figure about that. I have maples that look exactly like this but I didn't build them that way cause it's fashionable in Japan, they are that way cause the leader I chose pointed that way. Forward! I wouldn't choose a backward pointing tip for an apex. I might pick a shoot to the left or right, and I would be willing to bet that no one makes sure that the shoot is pointing forward when the wire it.

The scars will show much better in Adair's monster picture. I just showed you where they are.
03050D48-7A0C-42B3-B4DD-9AAE8E26FFD41.JPGred2.JPG

Just for exercise check these out. Which one is the actual front view of the tree? Look at the branches. That's the big give away. The trunk does not change. Only the branches. I could move all of them on these three views and make them identical.

001.JPG002.JPG003.JPG

I chose this tree because sitting flat it has a pronounced lean to the front, with a leaning away base like Adair's and Bill's tree. My point was more to show the absurdness of this forced perspective in the trunk. It means nothing and is totally manipulative by the artist. Forced perspective only means something if you have no control of somethings length. If you have a stick two feet long and you want it to be 18 inches long, and the only way someone is going to look at it, is from the front, then yes, one can slant the stick and compress the image to make it appear shorter. We don't need to do that with a tree. If you want an 18 inch tree, then make an 18 inch tree. Cut the bitch down. You don't need to lean the two feet absurdly leaning tree to the front to allow the viewer to see a shorter tree.

001a.JPG002a.JPG003a.JPG

Where does it end? If some is good, does it get better when it really reaches out there?

extreme.jpg
 
And, if you train it right, you will include training a replacement leader that you can cut back to periodically so the tree doesn't grow out over the front of the pot and fall on the floor. Outside of bonsai, it's called, "Planning ahead".
 
The foreshortening effect is subtle. It works best, generally speaking, if the apex is forward of the nebari, yet still behind the edge of the pot. If it juts out beyond the front rim, it becomes an “eye poker”.

Al, this is not a “Japanese” thing. Foreshortening and forced perspective are universal techniques used in many of the visual arts.
 
The foreshortening effect is subtle. It works best, generally speaking, if the apex is forward of the nebari, yet still behind the edge of the pot. If it juts out beyond the front rim, it becomes an “eye poker”.

Al, this is not a “Japanese” thing. Foreshortening and forced perspective are universal techniques used in many of the visual arts.
So Bills tree is wrong, not a good repsentation of your position?
You keep showing trees that support your position. Show me some professional trees that don’t fit your idea that don’t work. Walters tree was perfect in its proportion and front apex without looking stupid. I’m sorry but the side view of your tree is silly looking.

What did you think of my virtual of your tree? Is there a limit? Do you feel you’ve reached it? Be honest for the sake of education, not always being right. Your are right about, in front of the nebari and behind the pot rim is great. That’s not what you keep preaching here though.
 
Al, this is not a “Japanese” thing. Foreshortening and forced perspective are universal techniques used in many of the visual arts.

I totally agree. Yet, you are the one that keeps comparing to the Japanese aesthetic and the way they style their trees. Your teacher obviously has enfluenced you emensely about what makes a good bonsai. That’s the problem with slavishly following a teacher, you find yourself unable to defend yourself without looking stupid to your teacher. You have to keep up the charade or look more silly. I am my own man and can reason for myself. I don’t need someone to show me where to prune next, or place the branch after I wire it.

You are a reflection of your teacher. I do not think this idea is as universal as you make out. I have access to many of the finest trees on the west coast and will be taking pictures of sides as well from now on. My hunch is front of nebari behind pot. THAT is universal, been written about in every book and known as common sense. The side view of your pine, not so much......
 
Lol!!!

Anthony has a warped perceptive of the goals of bonsai.

Part of his confusion is he wants to apply principles of Chinese Penjing to Japanese Bonsai. Then, THAT’s mixed in with his experience of living in Trinidad where tropical trees grow quickly, but are generally not long lived. All those influences put together makes his perspective rather limiting. And unfortunately, he tends to rely on old books as his source of information. Even while posting here. He tends to disregard the modern techniques that BVF, MarkyScott, and myself share here in favor of stuff that was done 50 years ago.

I have been patiently trying to educate Anthony, yet he seems To have the attitude of “that won’t work here”.

Alas...

Once again the condescending arrogance:rolleyes:!
 
@Potawatomi13 ,

Sifu [ Adair ] has a mental socialising problem [ see admission in his
Intense Course topic ] and if memory serves had some sort of illness with
his kidney.
I extend a person like that a great deal of grace, as I don't want to
start anything else in his body .

That said, I have tried to explain to him that most of Trinidad's forest trees
are Sub-Tropical.Mutations from seed. There are no Tropicals.

Additionally he is repeating my words - just read the archives.
My comments on the Design reaching a high point and then changing.

Or he was growing bonsai for 40 years plus, but has no images tlo
show.

Self admission that he cannot design.
Which is what Al speaks about above.

So I let him pound me and I won't hurt him.
Good Day
Anthony
 
[QUOTE="Sorry but the side view of your tree is silly looking.
[/QUOTE]
Finally someone with bonsai authority said exactly what I have been saying so eloquently... I rest my case!
 
So Bills tree is wrong, not a good repsentation of your position?
You keep showing trees that support your position. Show me some professional trees that don’t fit your idea that don’t work. Walters tree was perfect in its proportion and front apex without looking stupid. I’m sorry but the side view of your tree is silly looking.

What did you think of my virtual of your tree? Is there a limit? Do you feel you’ve reached it? Be honest for the sake of education, not always being right. Your are right about, in front of the nebari and behind the pot rim is great. That’s not what you keep preaching here though.
Bill’s tree?

It appears to me that while branches extend forward of the pot, the apex, the highest point of the tree is still within the front rim.

What do I think of your virt? It’s a better virt than I can do! But, I think it’s too pointed. The apex is way out at the end. I don’t style like that. You have it as if the apex, the highest point, is also the most forward point.

My tree has branches that extend forward beyond the pot, but the highest point is still behind the rim.
 
Al, you say the side view of my tree is silly looking. How about “Bill’s tree”? Is it also silly?

I have been to California, and seen many great trees there. But, I’m not limited to California.

I’m not interested in searching for “a professional’s tree that don’t fit my idea that doesn’t work”. I’m not even sure what that means! Lol!!!

I hope I am a reflection of my teacher! Boon is one of the best bonsai artists in the world! So, if my trees are looking like his, that means I’m learning! Thanks for the complement!
 
Once again the condescending arrogance:rolleyes:!
Post up some trees, Pots. I haven’t seen any of your trees. I regularly show trees in California, New York, Georgia, and North Carolina. You?

When I give advice on this site, I usually back it up with an example. Of one of my trees. You?
 
@Smoke, I picked up a random copy of one of my Japanese language bonsai magazines, because they do provide pictures of all 4 sides of bonsai. More so than do most English language publications.

This one is an August, 1985 issue of “Contempory Bonsai”.

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Flipping thru, I found an article about developing Shohin JBP. There were more development pictures, but I’ll spare you that, and show the final result:

9E528378-19F3-495C-992D-86C0E2C589F2.jpeg

Nice little tree, no?

Let’s look at the other sides:

1BDC7F71-C972-4DCE-90BD-277C1292B070.jpeg

A close up of the little black and white images:

791E8406-7389-49E5-8A42-3BBAB2980304.jpeg

The top picture is the view of the right side of the tree. (Front of the tree on the left).

Middle picture is the left side, and the bottom picture is the back.

Looking at the tree from the sides, the canopy is rather flat, vertically, on the front side. The apex is in front of the trunk, that is, it’s closer to the viewer than the base of the trunk. “Leans forward”.

Even on an 8 inch tall tree!

Oh, I know you’re still not convinced...

So, I went to YOUR preferred bonsai master: John Naka. Naka is silent on the “lean” of trunks relative to the viewer. I thumbed thru my copy of Techniques 1, and found only one drawing of a tree from the side:

372AA246-D933-49BF-9203-E807253B9BD5.jpeg

The bottom picture. He’s talking about choosing pots in this section of the book. But, look at the tree! What does it do? It’s a side-on shot, and I’ll be damned if it doesn’t lean forward!

Put that in your pipe, and smoke it!
 
Am I stupid and blind, or is the 8" tree ugly? If that's an example of great bonsai, I'm going back gardening.
 
I have always heard that the apex should be brought back toward the viewer. It’s in the rules. When styling my upright trees I will comply.
When a tree is a cascade or semi cascade- how does the rule apply then?
If there is no apex- does it become the first growth on the branch???
Because there are trees with no apex.
Not my tree- lol
View attachment 230110
As promised:

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So, the apex of the foliage, even on a cascade, moves towards the viewer.
 
Am I stupid and blind, or is the 8" tree ugly? If that's an example of great bonsai, I'm going back gardening.
The color picture is a styled JBP Shohin, designed to sit on top of a Shohin box stand. Sure, it’s freshly styled, and will look better after it has grown in for a year.

What do you think a Shohin JBP should look like?
 
It should have distinct clouds with space between. I didn't know it was represented as being "young" or new.
 
Post up some trees, Pots. I haven’t seen any of your trees. I regularly show trees in California, New York, Georgia, and North Carolina. You?

When I give advice on this site, I usually back it up with an example. Of one of my trees. You?

Amazing how some people have 10,000 posts but not a tree in sight
 
It should have distinct clouds with space between. I didn't know it was represented as being "young" or new.
Distinct clouds of foliage, on a JBP, with space in between... on an 8 inch tree...

Show me one.

I can come close:

A02A317B-6D1F-49C3-AA98-2ABDDE0B6953.jpeg

But this is my initial styling. It hadn’t ever been decandled. So, I had to cut the needles. After a couple of years, I’ll have the needles down to 3/4 inch. But clouds? And space in between?

I’m pretty good. But not THAT good! Lol!!!
 
For the life of me I can't understand the virulent resistance to the obvious with this. Forward lean in a trees adds perspective, subtle, yeah, but it's there. Simple artistic technique used for literally hundreds of years in Western and Eastern art.
 
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