What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[Adair M]

Al, I am very aware of how much this tree leans forward. I have taken multiple sets of “all 4 sides” of this tree over the years. In fact, it is one of the primary teaching tools I use. (The tree, not my photos).

Because when seen from the front, it’s doesnt appear to be leaning. Only when viewed from the side.

Leaning a tree forward is a way to get more from less. You can make a taller tree look shorter. More trunk, you can have more branches. With more branches, the tree looks fuller. Leaning the tree forward, you can have longer and fuller back branches, which makes the tree have more depth.

 

[janaiya]

lol...I am no English scholar...but , may have put more focus on "some" than the word you chose. Lack of sleep...I shouldn't even comment. But...it amused me. Carry on. Back in the day...all caps in text on a forum meant one was screaming.

"Back in the day...all caps in text on a forum meant one was screaming"
I did not know that! I am german and I use to do the same when I try to explain something, but I certainly did not mean that I was screaming. Other countries other meanings. Another thing learned here.

 

[Adair M]

"Back in the day...all caps in text on a forum meant one was screaming"
I did not know that! I am german and I use to do the same when I try to explain something, but I certainly did not mean that I was screaming. Other countries other meanings. Another thing learned here.

I sometimes put a word or two in all caps to emphasize a point. I don’t consider that screaming. A whole sentance, yes, that’s screaming.

 

[janaiya]

This was quite an interesting lecture here with lots of emotions and passion, and that's what Bonsai is all about. We all love it, we all want to show it, learn it , teach it , share views and opinions and we all want to talk about it. That's why we all are here. I certainly hope to continue to learn from all you guys and I hope you all never forget: many of us are different ages and/or from other countries and to explain ourselves is not always easy and some things can go in the wrong direction but are never meant to be offensive. LOL

 

[Smoke]

Al, thanks for posting some examples.

Let me talk about one of them: the one with the tape measure on the apex. You measured the length of the trunk from the point of the chop to the apex. It appears to be 5 inches. Then you measured from the point of the chop directly up, showing the apparent height. That length was 4 inches.

So, the forward lean makes it appear that a 5 inch trunk is only 4 inches. THAT is foreshortening. It’s not a bonsai rule, it is the way our eyes and brain work. Artists have been using this for years!

I could cut the tree down, whats your point cause I didn't do this to make the tree shorter, thats silly.

I’m not saying that trees have to lean forward to ridiculousness. I’m saying that one might be surprised how far they lean forward, and one might not be aware of it unless one goes looking for it.

As for my trees, yes, I’ve been lucky to own and work with some very nice trees. I also have worked with more ordinary material, and I help my students with their material in classes. When choosing a front, I usually start with the nebari and lower trunk, but if that send the whole top of the tree going away, I might reconsider, and choose the other side. For sure, when styling, I DO intentionally try to bring the top of the tree forward. Not because of any “rule”, but because the trees simply look better.

As someone stated above, “rules” like this aren’t set in place by bonsai police, they’re just observations that people have made about what good trees have in common.

Your tree leans to ridiculousness....my opinion

It goes like this: consider 50 trees. 40 look good, and ten are not so good. Then someone noticed that the 40 that look good lean forward. The 10 lesser trees don’t. It’s reasonable that someone says, gee, the way to make good looking trees is to have them lean forward.

Does it mean you HAVE to go it? No, anyone can do what they want. I think it does mean that you have a better chance of what most people will perceive to be a nicer tree if it leans forward.

This is the most stupid hypothetical you have ever posted. Come on your better than this. First you have to decide your own lingo. What does lean mean and what does projecting apex mean? I agree with a leaning forward trunk, but not a projecting apex. How do you define it?

Al, I am very aware of how much this tree leans forward. I have taken multiple sets of “all 4 sides” of this tree over the years. In fact, it is one of the primary teaching tools I use. (The tree, not my photos).

Because when seen from the front, it’s doesn't appear to be leaning. Only when viewed from the side.

Leaning a tree forward is a way to get more from less. You can make a taller tree look shorter. More trunk, you can have more branches. With more branches, the tree looks fuller. Leaning the tree forward, you can have longer and fuller back branches, which makes the tree have more depth.

You could do exactly everything you said with out the lean in the top half of the tree. You are adding nothing. You could have just as many branches at the level they are. You could have the tree any height you wish without leaning it at all.

When seen from the front the view is two dimensional. That is precisely how foreshortening works. You have not shortened this tree significantly by this forward movement. Maybe an inch at best. Whats the point of shortening the tree. Straighten the damn trunk and style the branches to that shape. The one thing I am sure of in bonsai is that no tree is the ideal height. If your tree was two inches taller...so what. You would compensate with longer branches and make it look correct. Your leaning apex to shorten the tree is bullshit, because unlike a piece of marble we can change the height, make it shorter. Let it grow, do anything we want. The tree is not static like a sculpture or piece of wall art. What would be most interesting is the history of this tree and just how much Adair influence you have had on the design and how much was not changeable. Got any pictures of when you got it?

One thing is very true about this thread. NO ONE will take pictures the same at an exhibit again. All trees will now be shot from the side to see how much they have let the apex go and who has reigned them in. I know I will!!!!!!

You notice I didn't say lean. My trunks lean too. But my apexes do not stick out like this and ruin the image "around the tree".

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Trees engage with the Sun growing towards its light. In bonsai the tree engages with the viewer, their "Sun." Very awkward otherwise. Just my opinion.

 

[Adair M]

I could cut the tree down, whats your point cause I didn't do this to make the tree shorter, thats silly.

Your tree leans to ridiculousness....my opinion



This is the most stupid hypothetical you have ever posted. Come on your better than this. First you have to decide your own lingo. What does lean mean and what does projecting apex mean? I agree with a leaning forward trunk, but not a projecting apex. How do you define it?



You could do exactly everything you said with out the lean in the top half of the tree. You are adding nothing. You could have just as many branches at the level they are. You could have the tree any height you wish without leaning it at all.

When seen from the front the view is two dimensional. That is precisely how foreshortening works. You have not shortened this tree significantly by this forward movement. Maybe an inch at best. Whats the point of shortening the tree. Straighten the damn trunk and style the branches to that shape. The one thing I am sure of in bonsai is that no tree is the ideal height. If your tree was two inches taller...so what. You would compensate with longer branches and make it look correct. Your leaning apex to shorten the tree is bullshit, because unlike a piece of marble we can change the height, make it shorter. Let it grow, do anything we want. The tree is not static like a sculpture or piece of wall art. What would be most interesting is the history of this tree and just how much Adair influence you have had on the design and how much was not changeable. Got any pictures of when you got it?

One thing is very true about this thread. NO ONE will take pictures the same at an exhibit again. All trees will now be shot from the side to see how much they have let the apex go and who has reigned them in. I know I will!!!!!!

You notice I didn't say lean. My trunks lean too. But my apexes do not stick out like this and ruin the image "around the tree".

Of course I have pictures of when I got it.









These were when I bought it. The tree was just decandled. I had not done any wiring or styling.

 

[Smoke]

Thanks for the pictures....it's as I suspected....

It looks as though you have backed the apex off some. The first side shot shows the apex much farther forward than it is now. I have no idea what that means to you. I know what it means to me. Maybe you can elaborate.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for the pictures....it's as I suspected....

It looks as though you have backed the apex off some. The first side shot shows the apex much farther forward than it is now. I have no idea what that means to you. I know what it means to me. Maybe you can elaborate.

What are you talking about?

The apex?



The apex is the highest point of the tree. Straight down from that is the front of the nebari. I circled the apex in red. There is a bit of branch that’s farther forward, circled in yellow. Straight down from that is the rim of the pot.

I really don’t understand what you think you see. I have not adjusted the apex forward or back. I have wired branches down. Before I got it, it had become leggy up at the apex. I have tried to get it to backbud, so as to shorten all the branches up there, and I developed a little broom style tree as the apex. That’s not in this early picture.

In developing the apex, and pulling branches down, it went thru a “pointy” phase. That’s when it had backbudded enough that I could remove the longer leggy portions. Since the backbudding occurred closer to the trunk, the tree looked pointed. I prefer a more rounded apex. As the little broom style apex develops, it will get more rounded.

 

[Smoke]

After once again fixing you photo's I agree. I find it odd that someone with ADD as much as you have can't take a straight picture?

After fixing, you absolutely correct, you could put your tree right on top of the one you purchased. Good job. What you have is what you have.

 

[Smoke]

Now the most important question. If you were taking some one from seedling thru the next 15 years, is this the shape you would want them to shoot for? Is this your idea of ideal?

I feel my lines capture the benefit of the doubt. I can only trace what I can see. For instance, one could trace the lower trunk backwards a little more and trace the crown back a little more also. I did try to follow the largest portion of apex trunk shown.

I think these exercises are important in building a good tree.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/bonsai-stick-figures-with-special-guest-rick-martin.25502/

 

[Adair M]

Now the most important question. If you were taking some one from seedling thru the next 15 years, is this the shape you would want them to shoot for? Is this your idea of ideal?

I feel my lines capture the benefit of the doubt. I can only trace what I can see. For instance, one could trace the lower trunk backwards a little more and trace the crown back a little more also. I did try to follow the largest portion of apex trunk shown.

I think these exercises are important in building a good tree.
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/bonsai-stick-figures-with-special-guest-rick-martin.25502/

View attachment 226067

The lower trunk angles back a little more than you show, but that’s pretty close. There is a major chop right where the trunk starts to move forward. It’s almost healed over. Maybe in 20 more years it will be!

I like a trunk that moves in all directions. But I feel the top section should finish with a forward movement.

Sorry about my poor photography. I didn’t take these intending on publishing them. I took them so that I could remember what the tree looks like! At the time these were taken, the tree was at Boon’s and I only went there for 3 days, 3 times a year. So these snapshots were just to help me remember the tree!

It’s amazing how much a tree changes in 4 months! Now that I have the tree at home, the change still happens, of course, but it happens so gradually, I don’t notice. Visiting it every 4 months was very enlightening.

Now when I go to Boon’s I go 4 times a year, and stay for a week. I’ve had the opportunity to meet many if not most of the Intensive students who come from all over the country, as well as meet the local Bay Area guys. Some people take beach vacations, or ski trips, or golf holidays... I take bonsai vacations.

 

[Smoke]

The lower trunk angles back a little more than you show, but that’s pretty close. There is a major chop right where the trunk starts to move forward. It’s almost healed over. Maybe in 20 more years it will be!

I like a trunk that moves in all directions. But I feel the top section should finish with a forward movement.

Sorry about my poor photography. I didn’t take these intending on publishing them. I took them so that I could remember what the tree looks like! At the time these were taken, the tree was at Boon’s and I only went there for 3 days, 3 times a year. So these snapshots were just to help me remember the tree!

It’s amazing how much a tree changes in 4 months! Now that I have the tree at home, the change still happens, of course, but it happens so gradually, I don’t notice. Visiting it every 4 months was very enlightening.

Now when I go to Boon’s I go 4 times a year, and stay for a week. I’ve had the opportunity to meet many if not most of the Intensive students who come from all over the country, as well as meet the local Bay Area guys. Some people take beach vacations, or ski trips, or golf holidays... I take bonsai vacations.

Thanks for playing along with all my questions. Sometimes people see this sort of thing as arguing or disrespectful but I don't agree with that. There is no other way to find out the other side of how people think. I think there are people here on both sides of the fence and each can take from the discussion what they will. It is a beautiful tree and I have my own pictures of it from when I seen it in person.

I still think this will wake a lot of people up to how to look at bonsai. I think many pictures of the sides of trees will be taken. I know I will add to my new file of "Forward Apex" trees. For better or worse it will give me lots to talk about when I give lectures and workshops.

There will come a time when we talk about this again, after I have some new photo's:

It goes like this: consider 50 trees. 40 look good, and ten are not so good. Then someone noticed that the 40 that look good lean forward. The 10 lesser trees don’t. It’s reasonable that someone says, gee, the way to make good looking trees is to have them lean forward.

You do understand that I go to lots of really good exhibitions and I will have no problem taking fifty pictures of wonderful trees to look at? At each exhibit. I hope these words don't come back to haunt you....lol!

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for playing along with all my questions. Sometimes people see this sort of thing as arguing or disrespectful but I don't agree with that. There is no other way to find out the other side of how people think. I think there are people here on both sides of the fence and each can take from the discussion what they will. It is a beautiful tree and I have my own pictures of it from when I seen it in person.

I still think this will wake a lot of people up to how to look at bonsai. I think many pictures of the sides of trees will be taken. I know I will add to my new file of "Forward Apex" trees. For better or worse it will give me lots to talk about when I give lectures and workshops.

There will come a time when we talk about this again, after I have some new photo's:



You do understand that I go to lots of really good exhibitions and I will have no problem taking fifty pictures of wonderful trees to look at? At each exhibit. I hope these words don't come back to haunt you....lol!

View attachment 226083

Well, perhaps the “forward lean” thing hasn’t been on your radar screen. Now that it is, maybe you’ll notice it’s effectiveness.

I think most people new to bonsai are unaware of the forward lean effect. When you look at a photograph, you don’t see it. This is one of the benefits of going to shows. You get to see the trees from many angles.

 

[Cadillactaste]

"Back in the day...all caps in text on a forum meant one was screaming"
I did not know that! I am german and I use to do the same when I try to explain something, but I certainly did not mean that I was screaming. Other countries other meanings. Another thing learned here.

I didn't realize it either until one pointed it out here on the forum several years back. I would capitalize specific words. And was told to stop yelling at people. Blew my mind. ? Etiquette on online text I guess. (((Shrugs)))

 

[Smoke]

Well, perhaps the “forward lean” thing hasn’t been on your radar screen. Now that it is, maybe you’ll notice it’s effectiveness.

I think most people new to bonsai are unaware of the forward lean effect. When you look at a photograph, you don’t see it. This is one of the benefits of going to shows. You get to see the trees from many angles.

I still am not sure what you mean by forward lean as you have not really commented nor taken the time like I asked to define it. My trees have forward leaning trunks, but do NOT have forward projecting apexes. I think there is a difference. And for the record, you have not defined what benefit this forward projecting apex adds to the forward image. Since you can't see it except from the side, you can't convey the same thing in a more upright normal looking way a tree grows image? If you don't know it nor see it , what purpose does it serve?

 

[Adair M]

I still am not sure what you mean by forward lean as you have not really commented nor taken the time like I asked to define it. My trees have forward leaning trunks, but do NOT have forward projecting apexes. I think there is a difference. And for the record, you have not defined what benefit this forward projecting apex adds to the forward image. Since you can't see it except from the side, you can't convey the same thing in a more upright normal looking way a tree grows image? If you don't know it nor see it , what purpose does it serve?

Foreshortening. It makes a longer trunk appear to be shorter than it actually is. You don’t “see” it, because it’s a visual trick. Our brains expect the tree to be growing straight up. When we see a vertical trunk, we really can’t tell if it leans forward, backward, or actually is straight up. Our binocular vision isn’t good enough to tell the difference. So, our brains assume that it is straight upright.

But, if it leans forward, the apex will not be as high above the pot. So, a forward leaning trunk will appear to be “shorter” than a trunk the same length if it were potted vertically.

So, for this tree:





The height above the pot is 23 inches. The length of the trunk plus the twigging to make the apex is 26 inches. A difference of 3 inches. That makes the tree 11.5 % shorter by having a forward leaning trunk than if it were potted upright.

As for the apex coming forward, we can magnify the foreshortening by increasing the angle of lean. Theorically, if the trunk came straight forward the viewer’s eye, it could be of any length and the tree would appear to be no taller, even though the trunk would be much longer. (Especially if the viewer were some distance away). Of course, that’s absurd, but the principle holds true.

Take a straight ruler, hold it straight in front of you at arms length, and observe the inch marks. Now tilt it so that the 12 is closer to your eye. Hold it at a 45 degree angle. Observe the inch marks. They appear to be closer together now. Tilt it more horizontal, the closer they appear to be. More vertical, they show their true length.

Using this trick, having an apex lean forward can make the internodes in the apex area appear to be closer together than they actually are.

So, the ideal way to take advantage of foreshortening is to have a trunk that increases its forward lean the higher up in the tree you go. Combine the foreshortening trick with actually having shorter internodes is what really makes for an outstanding tree. In my opinion, not using foreshortening is handicapping the artist’s ability to create an image of a large tree in miniature.

 

[coh]

Why not just build the tree with more/closer branches in the apex? Then you can do away with the lean.

 

[Adair M]

Why not just build the tree with more/closer branches in the apex? Then you can do away with the lean.

Why not do both?

 

[coh]

Follow-up to the previous thought. If you have that tree (last 2 photos) at your place, can you take another set of photos. Take the tree and prop it up so that the part of the trunk that leans forward
is perfectly vertical (so you'd have to lean the pot back). Then take a photo of the front from the same position as you did before. I'm curious to see how different the images look. I realize this won't be a perfect
comparison because the branches have been styled to work with the current lean but am still curious.