Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I'm not going to comment on every photo... but I am still waiting for an example of a great design where the tree leans away from the viewer.
What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?
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0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
???
Am I looking at the wrong tree? The cascade I see has everything coming toward the viewer. The whole composition is projecting forward, not backwards.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
If one starts at the bottom of a cascade, the tree goes away as one moves up.
The exact same slope on the trunk of an upright would be moving away - as one goes up, it gets farther away.
I can considered the position that cascade and bowing to the viewer are really the same in the sense that a cascade is just a mirror of an proper upright - both come forward as the eye moves away from the soil level. And, that seems reasonable until considering something like the JWP from Taiwan - it is all above the soil level and not a cascade = is this leaning away? The apex is in the back, not in front, over the viewer.
So, while I am interested in your challenge, I am just very confused about what the perception of 'leaning away' is.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I don't see a drastically leaning away from viewer tree. The cascade branch draws the viewer in as it comes forward. If we had the entire tree forced forward would that branch seem more poking one in the eye? I don't see this tree in the slightest of pulling away from the viewer with the cascade branch as it is beautifully placed.
A. Gorilla
Omono
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A. Gorilla
Omono
Google "Walter Pall oak"...that's what occurred to me. Not sure if there are other angles.
Ok, I googled “Walter Pall oak” and found images of this and many other trees taken from the front. How can I determine if the apex moves forward from that?
Come on... I posted trees from the front, you can’t tell that there’s any forward lean, then posted side shots where the forward lean becomes apparent.
If you have a backward leaning (or moving) tree, bring it on!
A. Gorilla
Omono
Take it easy, take is easy.
I'll see what I can do.
:::runs to car, starts engine, peels out::::
I'll see what I can do.
:::runs to car, starts engine, peels out::::
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
d
My oak is not leaning backwards. The top is just above the trunk and comes slightly forward. How come you are just assuming something and then call it a fact. Seems to be a recent trend in our society.
My oak is not leaning backwards. The top is just above the trunk and comes slightly forward. How come you are just assuming something and then call it a fact. Seems to be a recent trend in our society.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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@Walter Pall , I think it's fantastic that you've joined this particular discussion. Since I'm pretty comfortable stating that you have personally been involved in the development of more exceptional bonsai then any one else here, I'm hoping that you might be able to tell us if you have deliberately designed a tree with the apex moving away from the chosen front of the tree, and if so, why? Thank you.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Cable
Omono
What's funny is that while I was reading this I was fully expecting Walter to show up with a backwards leaning tree that looked good because I'm convinced Walter can break any rule and his tree will still look good. 
A. Gorilla
Omono
Take it easy, take it easy. It looked like it leaned back to me. The OP did not specify apex only.
Take a nitro.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
We're talking about bonsai - where you view the tree from the nebari up the trunk. Doesn't matter if the tree grows up, left, right, down... the vast majority of bonsai designs come forward toward the viewer.
I have seen, on occasion, trees where the lower trunk fades away from the viewer, and then the upper trunk comes forward. Also, in the case of a formal upright, or perhaps a slant, you can have an apex that might be located in the same line as the nebari. However I have never seen a successful design where the apex is located behind or to the rear of the nebari - where the tree is moving away from the viewer.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
My point exactly. Like I said take the Smoke challenge and start styling the tree from the back and in a couple years the apex will move to the back. THIS IS NOT A RULE OF BONSAI AND MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE. YES I AM YELLING.
No one wants their apex pointing backwards. Keep working it over a number of years and yes they start moving forward. Moving forward does not make the tree better nor more Japanese. It does not compress the view and in actuality probably adds less than half an inch in total height, far from being able to cram in more branches. This is common sense stuff people not sought after Asian secrets.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Hey, no need to yell at me, man, ? I happen to agree. In fact, after a while, I’ve turned trees around because the back ends up looking more interesting, or less manipulated. While the apex of this one ended up behind the base of the trunk at the time I changed it, it’s moved ahead of the base over the last 7-8 years.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I am glad this thread was created. I've not seen a bonsai in full perspective as to how far they can lean toward the front. And it's eased my mind...on a few. Still waiting on that apex that leans away from viewer. Though...I could swear there was some yamadori at a show last year...that did exactly that. They showed the back of the trees, will ask around and see if one can guide me toward a photo. I tried the search, but nothing coming up. I'm sure I commented on it being the back. But...maybe the post was on FB.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes, it is good to have these kinds of discussions every so often, even though no one ever changes their minds
People should ask why things are done a certain way, whethermaybe there are other ways that are acceptable even if only some of the time.
When I think about a lot of the "rules" and explanations that are given, I often find myself thinking "really?" The idea of forced perspective makes sense at first - take a
vertical object and tilt it forward and the area that is tilted appears to be reduced or compressed. As Adair said, this can make the branches in the apex appear as if they
are closer together (though I still think the effect is minimal at these scales, but maybe it does contribute to the illusion). However, tilting the object away produces the same
effect. So why do people favor the forward lean? Does it really look "better" in some absolute sense or is it just that they've been trained to think it looks better? That still
hasn't been answered effectively in my opinion. People have written that trees that lean away look like they're falling over, but to me trees that are leaning too much forward also
look like they are falling over.
The idea that trees "accidentally" develop a forward lean over time is interesting and maybe true to some degree. But...I've seen a lot of demos now and read a lot
of books and magazine articles, talked to people at the National shows...it is definitely suggested by many that the apex of trees should lean forward and that active
measures should be taken to achieve that lean (as opposed to it just happening over time as a result of styling). Various explanations are still given including the idea
of "bowing" or welcoming the viewer, whether these are accurate interpretations of what the Japanese intend is another matter.
I find that a lot of the "rules" and explanations that are often thrown around as gospel don't seem to hold up very well if you really think about them.
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