What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[Walter Pall]

I believe it has to do with body language. Everybody by instinct can read body language. In all cultures and everywhere a human can tell whether someone looks at him, seems to like him, seems to hate him, seems to be aggressive. If I stand in front of you and my head leans backward it seems arrogant, negative. If I slightly bow my head towards you I seem friendly. if I strongly move my head towards you it seems aggressive.

Like all beasts the humans are self centered and think everything is about them. Without really thinking we instinctively see the human body language in a tree and somehow have the feeling that this is a nice tree if the artist slightly moved the head forward.

I really strongly believe in this and always would try to style a tree with the head slightly forward if at all possible. If the whole tree leans back a little but the head comes forward it still can look right also. If a tree has a dynamic movement to one side it is in my eyes very important to have the head moving strongly towards that side. Then it should also in addition move slightly towards the viewer.

 

[Smoke]

I believe it has to do with body language. Everybody by instinct can read body language. In all cultures and everywhere a human can tell whether someone looks at him, seems to like him, seems to hate him, seems to be aggressive. If I stand in front of you and my head leans backward it seems arrogant, negative. If I slightly bow my head towards you I seem friendly. if I strongly move my head towards you it seems aggressive.

Like all beasts the humans are self centered and think everything is about them. Without really thinking we instinctively see the human body language in a tree and somehow have the feeling that this is a nice tree if the artist slightly moved the head forward.

I really strongly believe in this and always would try to style a tree with the head slightly forward if at all possible. If the whole tree leans back a little but the head comes forward it still can look right also. If a tree has a dynamic movement to one side it is in my eyes very important to have the head moving strongly towards that side. Then it should also in addition move slightly towards the viewer.

I have highlighted the most important words in this text. It is stated perfectly.

 

[rockm]

Good Lord,

I've been following this thread for a while. I find it very hard to believe people are soooooo upset with the "rule" or whatever. That objection is similar to objecting to tide coming it.

Forced perspective techniques such as foreshortening are not a "bonsai rule" (BTW, why are bonsai "rules" ALWAYS hated by a select few? It is simply because they see themselves as "mavericks" who have no use for those "damn rules"--when in fact they're pretty much using a lot of them without knowing it...)

Foreshortening and forced perspective have been tools in EVERY artist's toolbox for centuries--if not millennia. Michelangelo used it for his statue of David. French sculptor Bartoldi used it for the Statue of Liberty. The list of noted works of art that use these techniques is very very very long.

Art doesn't really care if you don't believe the technique works for bonsai. It does, just as it does for a stone sculpture. Can't change the way the human eye perceives things.

Scoff, scream and yell, don't have your trees lean forward even a bit. No one is forcing anything on you or thinking less of you for not using these visual tools on your trees. Don't bitch is someone else chooses to.

 

[Vance Wood]

Good Lord,

I've been following this thread for a while. I find it very hard to believe people are soooooo upset with the "rule" or whatever. That objection is similar to objecting to tide coming it.

Forced perspective techniques such as foreshortening are not a "bonsai rule" (BTW, why are bonsai "rules" ALWAYS hated by a select few? It is simply because they see themselves as "mavericks" who have no use for those "damn rules"--when in fact they're pretty much using a lot of them without knowing it...)

Foreshortening and forced perspective have been tools in EVERY artist's toolbox for centuries--if not millennia. Michelangelo used it for his statue of David. French sculptor Bartoldi used it for the Statue of Liberty. The list of noted works of art that use these techniques is very very very long.

Art doesn't really care if you don't believe the technique works for bonsai. It does, just as it does for a stone sculpture. Can't change the way the human eye perceives things.

Scoff, scream and yell, don't have your trees lean forward even a bit. No one is forcing anything on you or thinking less of you for not using these visual tools on your trees. Don't bitch is someone else chooses to.

A very very small nail hit with a very very large hammer. Thank You. As I have said many times before and for years; the rules/guidelines only count when the outward appearance of your bonsai seem to be lacking something.

 

[Cosmos]

Is it reasonable to assume that this design guideline applies mostly to near-view trees, and that far view compositions (forests, tall elongated trunks) do not benefit nearly as much from having a slight forward tilt?

 

[bonsaichile]

Good Lord,

I've been following this thread for a while. I find it very hard to believe people are soooooo upset with the "rule" or whatever. That objection is similar to objecting to tide coming it.

Forced perspective techniques such as foreshortening are not a "bonsai rule" (BTW, why are bonsai "rules" ALWAYS hated by a select few? It is simply because they see themselves as "mavericks" who have no use for those "damn rules"--when in fact they're pretty much using a lot of them without knowing it...)

Foreshortening and forced perspective have been tools in EVERY artist's toolbox for centuries--if not millennia. Michelangelo used it for his statue of David. French sculptor Bartoldi used it for the Statue of Liberty. The list of noted works of art that use these techniques is very very very long.

Art doesn't really care if you don't believe the technique works for bonsai. It does, just as it does for a stone sculpture. Can't change the way the human eye perceives things.

Scoff, scream and yell, don't have your trees lean forward even a bit. No one is forcing anything on you or thinking less of you for not using these visual tools on your trees. Don't bitch is someone else chooses to.

I completely agree with you. Some people seem to reject the notion of rules or guidelines because "nobody tells ME what to do" or they whine because "rules stiffle creativity." What they dont want to accept is that bonsai has been practiced for centuries, and many of the guidelines are simply the distillation of that collective experience. They will try to re-invent the wheel. I am guessing they are the same kind of people that want to paint without learning how to draw a straight line or learning some color theory. Nevermind they end up producing the eyesores all art fests are filled with, they "play by their own rules," they are "original and unique."

 

[Smoke]

Good Lord,

I've been following this thread for a while. I find it very hard to believe people are soooooo upset with the "rule" or whatever. That objection is similar to objecting to tide coming it.

Forced perspective techniques such as foreshortening are not a "bonsai rule" (BTW, why are bonsai "rules" ALWAYS hated by a select few? It is simply because they see themselves as "mavericks" who have no use for those "damn rules"--when in fact they're pretty much using a lot of them without knowing it...)

Foreshortening and forced perspective have been tools in EVERY artist's toolbox for centuries--if not millennia. Michelangelo used it for his statue of David. French sculptor Bartoldi used it for the Statue of Liberty. The list of noted works of art that use these techniques is very very very long.

Art doesn't really care if you don't believe the technique works for bonsai. It does, just as it does for a stone sculpture. Can't change the way the human eye perceives things.

Scoff, scream and yell, don't have your trees lean forward even a bit. No one is forcing anything on you or thinking less of you for not using these visual tools on your trees. Don't bitch is someone else chooses to.

Define "rule". If you agree with Adair's idea that good bonsai must contain an apex that juts out 3 inches in front of the trunk, then I don't agree. If you define the rule as a bonsai if it leans front to back, should lean forward rather than backward, I agree. I think the former just looks stupid and lazy. Fix the apex man!

As far as foreshortening, I use this all the time, but not so much to make the tree seem shorter. In Bonsai foreshortening is used when a branch has to be used because there is no other and it is too long and has foliage on the end that can't be repaired quickly. So foreshortening the branch is a quick and easy way to allow an overly long branch fit into a styling while the correct branch is either grown or reduced later. Now on an apex, since the entire apex for the most part is shown in the front view and only minimally shortened by leaning, why not just cut the apex down and repair it?

Front view.


This apex is really leaning forward due to the leader being chosen came off the front of the chop. Side view and measured from the chop at 4.5 inches.


And holding the tape straight up which would add about 1/2 inch to the entire tree. I could easily reduce the tree by one inch if I wish as it grows so fast. It does need reduction and this will be done this year.



Now real foreshortening in bonsai is mostly practiced with branch length reduction. Today I put this pine into a pot. The trunk was over two and a half feet long and spindly. I decided to wind it up and give it some bends in the branches to look somewhat like a bonsai. I have no fear that it will fill in over a couple seasons.

Start





Now the branches are long and over eight inches long. To make them look in scale with this plant and get the foliage in a place that look like it belongs there I had to bend the branches in a horizontal plane ( so as not to be seen in a forward looking view because I can't shorten them like an apex on the trunk) to look nice from the view. One can see that the branches have been bent to the back of the tree and then brought forward and bent into the horizontal plane to look as though they came off the trunk in that position. Those big "S" bends do the job of taking up the slack in the long branch. ...and in my opinion I think these look stupid too, just like the major leaning apex. But we have to do what we have to do.

 

[Smoke]

The original intent of that thread wasn't to prove that the apex should not lean forward or that it should be upright or lean back, it was whether there are cases where having an uprightapex made more sense. It seems like you might have some examples of the upright case that could be useful.

I was not the person with an opinion one way or another. Adair was. He says that the best trees have a forward leaning apex. All I said was that the forward leaning apex is not what makes the tree look good, the forward leaning apex is just a side effect of always working the apex so hard. Always choosing forward facing shoots to reinforce the apex, and pruning the backs of the branches so the scars don't show. Poof next thing you know the apex is projecting two inches forward from where it started.

In my opinion an upright apex should be made all the time. If you work the tree with that intent then you can keep it there. If you just work with frontal shoots all the time and keep placing that final shoot facing forward for the photo, then over a number of years that's where it will be. Sticking out there and looking stupid. When I go to shows, and yes I been going to BIB shows for two decades so I see all the trees Adair talks about. I am the guy on the floor shooting the pictures straight up to see how the structure is made, the guy who has folders of just the accent plants at the exhibit and the guy that stands around and listens to people that don't know anything about bonsai. When you hear people talking about trees that don't know anything about them and they ask why the top of the tree sticks out so much in the front, what is a logical answer?

Now don't cop out and say that its what the rules say, cause I have had probably every book written and not one of them has ever said that your apex must project out in front of the tree to the point that it looks silly. Just think about it for a minute and ask your self why you couldn't make the apex more over the middle or top of the composition? Why? I'm not saying bend it backward, or side to side. I'm saying just keeping it balanced over the nebari. Is there something wrong with that?

These are some of my trees. The arrow is the front of course.

 

[Smoke]

A few more



The apex on this one started out moving forward due to the leader chosen. But one can see that I have moved it back over the base as much as possible. Why keep moving forward it serves no purpose.

 

[Smoke]

Now what I will follow up with is this. The difference between the material I work with and Adair works with is miles apart. In many cases the apex has been decided a decade ago, the apex may even be semi established and he may tweak it over a few years never really changing the major bones of the tree.

But if you are starting with nothing, or nursery material the apex will probably be pretty well centered over the base of the tree. This is all you can do. You may choose the front based on the best direction of the trunk, and hopefully are able to use the side that features the trunk towards the view as opposed to moving away from the viewer. But the apex, one has full control over, you have to make a conscience decision on how to style it and how to arrange it. For me, sticking out there like that looks stupid when you can place it much better if you care. If you don't care then it will be out there over the pot looking like an alien!!!

 

[Cadillactaste]

Did anyone else see Mr. Valavanis interview with Ryan Neil? There was a section of comparing styles...California was mentioned for its style...and a name behind that direction. I ponder...if it's where Al and Adair differ. Because of styling taught for the location they learned. Just my gerbil spinning.

 

[coh]

Now don't cop out and say that its what the rules say, cause I have had probably every book written and not one of them has ever said that your apex must project out in front of the tree to the point that it looks silly. Just think about it for a minute and ask your self why you couldn't make the apex more over the middle or top of the composition? Why? I'm not saying bend it backward, or side to side. I'm saying just keeping it balanced over the nebari. Is there something wrong with that?

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and trees.

True, I've never seen a book, article, or demonstrator say "your apex must project out in front of the tree to the point that it looks silly." But I have read and heard the suggestion that the apex should
"always" come forward and have seen multiple demonstrations where that point is reinforced. I suspect what happens (or has happened over the years) is some combination of processes - people hear this
recommendation and think more is better and keep bending/training their apex forward until it looks silly, plus some of what you say (it being an unintentional result of the training process). And the result
is trees that look kind of ridiculous when you view them from anything other than the exact "front".

Now what I will follow up with is this. The difference between the material I work with and Adair works with is miles apart. In many cases the apex has been decided a decade ago, the apex may even be semi established and he may tweak it over a few years never really changing the major bones of the tree.

But if you are starting with nothing, or nursery material the apex will probably be pretty well centered over the base of the tree. This is all you can do. You may choose the front based on the best direction of the trunk, and hopefully are able to use the side that features the trunk towards the view as opposed to moving away from the viewer. But the apex, one has full control over, you have to make a conscience decision on how to style it and how to arrange it. For me, sticking out there like that looks stupid when you can place it much better if you care. If you don't care then it will be out there over the pot looking like an alien!!!

Agree, probably most of us are starting/working with material more similar to yours than Adair's. Makes sense to me to style more upright as I've said earlier in this thread.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Did anyone else see Mr. Valavanis interview with Ryan Neil? There was a section of comparing styles...California was mentioned for its style...and a name behind that direction. I ponder...if it's where Al and Adair differ. Because of styling taught for the location they learned. Just my gerbil spinning.

I went back to Facebook...and can't recall who shared the video. I may have construed the context. I recall topic of refinement being mentioned...would that also mean the tilt? (((Shrugs)))

 

[Adair M]

Al, thanks for posting some examples.

Let me talk about one of them: the one with the tape measure on the apex. You measured the length of the trunk from the point of the chop to the apex. It appears to be 5 inches. Then you measured from the point of the chop directly up, showing the apparent height. That length was 4 inches.

So, the forward lean makes it appear that a 5 inch trunk is only 4 inches. THAT is foreshortening. It’s not a bonsai rule, it is the way our eyes and brain work. Artists have been using this for years!

I’m not saying that trees have to lean forward to ridiculousness. I’m saying that one might be surprised how far they lean forward, and one might not be aware of it unless one goes looking for it.

As for my trees, yes, I’ve been lucky to own and work with some very nice trees. I also have worked with more ordinary material, and I help my students with their material in classes. When choosing a front, I usually start with the nebari and lower trunk, but if that send the whole top of the tree going away, I might reconsider, and choose the other side. For sure, when styling, I DO intentionally try to bring the top of the tree forward. Not because of any “rule”, but because the trees simply look better.

As someone stated above, “rules” like this aren’t set in place by bonsai police, they’re just observations that people have made about what good trees have in common.

It goes like this: consider 50 trees. 40 look good, and ten are not so good. Then someone noticed that the 40 that look good lean forward. The 10 lesser trees don’t. It’s reasonable that someone says, gee, the way to make good looking trees is to have them lean forward.

Does it mean you HAVE to go it? No, anyone can do what they want. I think it does mean that you have a better chance of what most people will perceive to be a nicer tree if it leans forward.

 

[Smoke]

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and trees.

True, I've never seen a book, article, or demonstrator say "your apex must project out in front of the tree to the point that it looks silly." But I have read and heard the suggestion that the apex should
"always" come forward and have seen multiple demonstrations where that point is reinforced. I suspect what happens (or has happened over the years) is some combination of processes - people hear this
recommendation and think more is better and keep bending/training their apex forward until it looks silly, plus some of what you say (it being an unintentional result of the training process). And the result
is trees that look kind of ridiculous when you view them from anything other than the exact "front".



Agree, probably most of us are starting/working with material more similar to yours than Adair's. Makes sense to me to style more upright as I've said earlier in this thread.

Thank you for not having such a closed mind and being able to reason things out. For some reason people think I think the tree can be willy nilly. And you are right most everyone will say the the front of the tree should be the view in which the tree seems to bow to you. But no one ever said it must lean out over the pot!!!

 

[coh]

I went back to Facebook...and can't recall who shared the video. I may have construed the context. I recall topic of refinement being mentioned...would that also mean the tilt? (((Shrugs)))

Darlene, go to the bonsai mirai facebook page, click on "videos" it is available there.

 

[Adair M]

Thank you for not having such a closed mind and being able to reason things out. For some reason people think I think the tree can be willy nilly. And you are right most everyone will say the the front of the tree should be the view in which the tree seems to bow to you. But no one ever said it must lean out over the pot!!!

If you are trying to imply that I said it should extend beyond the rim of the pot, you’re mistaken. I did say they “usually extend to where they are over the rim”, and I did say the look funny if the extend beyond the rim. I then presented examples of trees where the apex is forward of the nebari, but still over the soil in front of the pot. I may have over stated the point I was trying to make, which is they can extend as far forward as being over the rim of the pot, but if they are so far forward they extend beyond the rim of the pot they look funny.

 

[Smoke]

Al, thanks for posting some examples.

Let me talk about one of them: the one with the tape measure on the apex. You measured the length of the trunk from the point of the chop to the apex. It appears to be 5 inches. Then you measured from the point of the chop directly up, showing the apparent height. That length was 4 inches.

So, the forward lean makes it appear that a 5 inch trunk is only 4 inches. THAT is foreshortening. It’s not a bonsai rule, it is the way our eyes and brain work. Artists have been using this for years!

I’m not saying that trees have to lean forward to ridiculousness. I’m saying that one might be surprised how far they lean forward, and one might not be aware of it unless one goes looking for it.

As for my trees, yes, I’ve been lucky to own and work with some very nice trees. I also have worked with more ordinary material, and I help my students with their material in classes. When choosing a front, I usually start with the nebari and lower trunk, but if that send the whole top of the tree going away, I might reconsider, and choose the other side. For sure, when styling, I DO intentionally try to bring the top of the tree forward. Not because of any “rule”, but because the trees simply look better.

As someone stated above, “rules” like this aren’t set in place by bonsai police, they’re just observations that people have made about what good trees have in common.

It goes like this: consider 50 trees. 40 look good, and ten are not so good. Then someone noticed that the 40 that look good lean forward. The 10 lesser trees don’t. It’s reasonable that someone says, gee, the way to make good looking trees is to have them lean forward.

Does it mean you HAVE to go it? No, anyone can do what they want. I think it does mean that you have a better chance of what most people will perceive to be a nicer tree if it leans forward.

 

[Smoke]

If you are trying to imply that I said it should extend beyond the rim of the pot, you’re mistaken. I did say they “usually extend to where they are over the rim”, and I did say the look funny if the extend beyond the rim. I then presented examples of trees where the apex is forward of the nebari, but still over the soil in front of the pot. I may have over stated the point I was trying to make, which is they can extend as far forward as being over the rim of the pot, but if they are so far forward they extend beyond the rim of the pot they look funny.

Like your tree?

Lets post it up again. To be truthfully honest I don't think you even knew how much this tree was forward until this thread. It's not things people look at while working on their trees.

 

[Adair M]

Like your tree?

Lets post it up again. To be truthfully honest I don't think you even knew how much this tree was forward until this thread. It's not things people look at while working on their trees.

View attachment 225926

The apex is the highest point of the tree. If i were to draw a line straight down from the highest point of my tree, it would touch the front of the nebari.

There are branches that extend in front of the pot.

But the apex doesn’t.