Mike Hennigan
Chumono
In the context of internet communication all caps is interpreted as shouting. You can always just use italics? Lol ?
What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?
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In the context of internet communication all caps is interpreted as shouting. You can always just use italics? Lol ?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I think Adair is in a better place to explain that the tilt can GO with the lean. Tilting the apex back slightly from the base doesn't negate the trunk's lean forward. It enhances it a bit by "opening up" the view of the canopy. If you have been to places like the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum in D.C. that have old established Japanese bonsai, this is pretty apparent IN MANY of them. It's not used on all, but it is a feature of some of the most effectively composed bonsai...
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Sorry, I never intend to scream. There are new conventions in communications today, and us old folks don't always get our point across. Not a new phenomenon, I suppose... You're asking an old dog to learn new tricks.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Point taken. Thank You.
Gene Deci
Shohin
Exactly! I had a tree in a show once where the nebari and branching looked better from the side that tilted away from the viewer. I showed it that way. The judge turned it around and turned it back and turned it around again. Finally he said, "It would be a better tree if it didn't have that problem."
So, by making small changes I'm trying to work on that. Isn't that what we always do - try to make our trees better. In the meantime I have the front tilting forward.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Here is a prime example of a tree that would be better if it did not have that problem! i am convinced that the current front is the best front and yet the tree moves away from the viewer initially, then to the side and the apex comes forward. over time with small changes in planting angle and foliage placement this will improve. But the basic problem or as i prefer to call it, the exception to the guideline will remain.
Note: the tree is not presented as a refined tree, rather it has just received an initial bending, wiring, styling to try and begin making the most of it. presented only as an example of this discussion.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I'm sorry, but showing an image from the back of a well-developed bonsai does NOT prove the point that the "front lean certainly helps the image"! This tree has been
developed over many years (decades or even longer) to show off a particular "front". Branching has been established to frame the image and allow the trunk to be seen.
From the front the trunk is visible from the base to over half way up the tree. From the back, the trunk is largely blocked by a "depth" branch that in the back view is coming
way out at the viewer. This skews the entire impression and makes the apex look further away and smaller. The views are simply too different to claim that "the front lean certainly
helps the image."
What you'd need would be two trees styled the same way, except on one the apex leans forward and on the other, it is upright or leans slightly back. However, since
everyone styles their trees with the apex forward, that kind of comparison is very difficult to find.
I understand the ideas of perspective and forced perspective, but I'm not convinced that they make much if any difference on these scales.
Your fantasy that the forward lean is a happy accident for my tree is misguided. This tree has been a bonsai for nearly half a century! The trunk movement is very much a deliberate design. The overall Silohette is very typical of a classically styled Japanese Black Pine.
But, here is another example, this time a Japanese White Pine:
The front:
Does it look like it leans forward?
As seen from the left:
Both trunks lean towards the front.
Now, the back:
From the above image, it’s apparent that the apex is moving away from the viewer. From the front, you don’t really notice it’s coming towards you.
And the right side:
Once again, you can see that the apex is forward of the nebari, but just inside the rim of the pot. Again, longer branches are towards the rear. The front of the tree, as viewed from the side, presents a nearly vertical wall of foliage. My JBP does the same thing.
This foliage profile IS typical of Japanese classical styling. It “doesn’t just happen”, it’s created by design.
@coh, I suggest you go look at Bill Valavanis’s pines. You’ll see them styled this way.
@Forsoothe!, I suggest you study advanced trees. Go to shows, if possible. That way you can see trees in 3 dimensions, see them from the side, from above, and below. It WILL change your perspective! When you only see trees in photos, you don’t see the tree in 3D. Be honest, does this white pine look like it’s leaning forward in the first picture? No, it doesn’t. But it is!
All the good trees do, almost without exception.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Your trees lean forward, and look good that way, because you carried out your intent to to do just that over 25 years of training. The question was, "is that always really necessary in all cases?" as in, a rule for all cases verses an option to consider. Some people think it looks un-natural, sometimes, or even often.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
This is not obvious from the 2d images. The apex does not appear to move appreciably in either direction from either view. I'm sure in person the lean
is apparent but again, that doesn't mean it's better that way. Certainly for some trees, not necessarily for all.
Of course! And if I go to the National Exhibition I'll see most or all of the trees styled that way. What does that prove? It proves that people believe
it's the best way to style them, not that it actually is the best way in all cases. The fact that people think trees look better this way can simply be confirmation
bias to some degree - they've been told trees should lean forward, all they've seen are trees that lean forward, so those are the trees that look "right"
to them. And as a result, trees that are vertical or lean back look "wrong."
Again, though - there really aren't many trees to compare. A more accurate statement might be "All the good trees styled like modern Japanese bonsai do,
almost without exception." But that leads into a whole other argument!
bonsaichile
Omono
It would be helpful if you backed your arguements with some trees of your own. Otherwise, I would defer to @Adair M . In the end, we can discuss all we want, but the truth is on the trees.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't have photos of my trees from the side, and most frontal shots don't show the depth in 2d. You seem to be on the side of must lean forwards?
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bonsaichile
Omono
When someone presents a tree like that JBP it is hard to argue against
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Your side views are much better trees. The front views are terrible. Whats going on here.
I'll just say this about the whole thing. A tree with a huge forward tilt over a period of many years is because the apex of the canopy requires the most yearly work. It is the area that receives much of the nipping and pruning all thru the year. We are constantly taking forward branches and training them as new leaders, cutting others in the back so the cut is not seen and wiring forward for best view. Just think about that for a minute. If you only work with forward branching and add as little as an eighth of inch of forward movement twice or even possibly three times a year, soon a couple inches of forward movement is added to the apex over four or five years. Leave alone 50 years....come on.
We only see this phenomenon on pine tree styled shapes and with an apex that comes to a point. We don't see it much on full canopied maples or elms or trees with a more rounded top on the canopy.
I would be willing to bet that most guys and gals working on their trees do this and keep adding to the forward tilt and don't even think about it. It's just part of styling a tree. I can tell you for a fact I don't style my tree like that and I can show you many that have this bowing apex.
Take the Smoke challenge and work on your tree from the back only. I guarantee you that with in three years you will see the apex from the side begin to make an "S" turn. Nothing else may change, but I guarantee you the apex will. If you keep a leader and wish to show that side.
The big deal is those that have awesome trees and don't have the silly looking tilt. Now that something to write home about. The forced perspective and compression is all bullshit also. Come on we are talking about trees that will fit into a five gallon bucket on average. I've heard this all before about Jackson Pollack. " Mr Keppler, you just don't appreciate real art" Please....my kids made many of these while in grammer school.
No, he’s saying I presented evidence to support my position that trees with forward leaning apexes look good.
You haven’t supported your position with trees that lean backwards with anything other than words.
Furthermore, I showed that trees that lean forward don’t look like they lean forward in photographs taken from the front. It’s not until you get a side shot that the forward lean becomes noticeable.
I maintain that most, if not all, of the great trees you see in photographs have a pronounced forward lean. You just don’t see it in a photograph. Which is why I suggested you go to shows to see it in real life. @coh even said that most, if not all the trees at the National Show have a forward lean. Now, this is a show of some 300 trees and about 150 individual bonsai artists from all over the US. And virtually every one has the apex moving forward. Do you think they all get together and plan it out? Or could it be each styles his tree to make it look the very best? I think the latter. And moving the apex forward is a choice each and every one makes! Why, it makes the tree look good because of the forced perspective it imparts.
Now, you have asked “why?”. The answer is simple: it makes the tree look good! If it didn’t, then the majority of trees would not lean forward. They’d move every which way. But the truth is, the forward lean of the apex “tricks the eye”. It aids in making the tree look shorter. Which means that more branches can be packed in (coming off the trunk) because the trunk is actually longer than it appears to be. The tree may be 24 inches tall. But the trunk may actually be 28 inches long! Because when you lean it forward, it lowers. So, you can use that extra trunk to get more branches. And in the angle of lean is greater up at the apex, the distance between the branches VISUALLY appears to be shorter because they are more behind each other rather than above each other.
The concept is “forced perspective”. Look it up in how it’s used in art.
Stacey Allen Muse started a thread on the concept about 4 or 5 years ago. Talking about vanishing points, horizons, etc.
Now, I’m a reasonable guy. I’ll show you a good tree where the apex does NOT move forward:
It’s a formal upright JBP. And the tree grows straight up. No forward lean. Because the definition of a FU state it should be straight up. This (and broom) are the exceptions to the rule of forward moving apexes. You hardly ever see true FUs because it’s hard to get one that will still look good while confirming to the style’s rules.
This tree:
Is it a formal upright? It certainly LOOKS like one, doesn’t it? But, no, it can’t be one. It has a very pronounced forward lean that you can’t see! So, it an informal upright.
Here Is a side shot taken of the tree a couple years ago:
You can see the trunk is definitely curved towards the front which is on the left from this angle. You would never know just by looking at the front.
So...
The pictures you see of great trees don’t show you the forward lean. Believe me, it’s there.
Attachments
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I agree, if it works no one except the most anal will realize you have broken one of the fundamental guidelines unless the lean in the opposite direction is so extreme as to be unavoidably obtuse. In that case it will be obvious to everyone anyway.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
There's a lot to deal with here. Let's start with the fact that anyone who has the temerity to question you, the Master Of All Art, is isolated and doesn't go to shows. You assume. Or, maybe we're just stupid and uneducated, or both! Or, all three. A really short sighted insult to the rest of the world. I don't understand why your words don't come through printed in red on my screen. You've explained your position quiet a few times now with pictures of Pines and still haven't addressed the question first asked, "Blah, blah, rule or guideline?
At the risk of giving you a stroke, Pines, -lovely as they are, are not the only trees in the world. If fact, you may have surmised that some of us have very few Pines. I think what was wanted by the originator of this thread was an in-depth discussion of how to deal with trees that refused to fit the mould, or were of a design that begged to break the rules, for example, Literati-like irregular, but full, deciduous trees (not two-dimensional Pines). They abound. And, artsy-types are drawn to interesting forms and textures and break-the-mould challenging shapes they can call their own. There are also trees with real leaves that are of more ordinary composition that are not picture-perfect. In fact, I remember a judge (of course the only real judge I ever saw up here in back-woods Detroit) gig a perfect Boxwood because he, "...never saw a tree with a perfect dome like that in nature." Some of us morons think we can create an appealing form in many different shapes and sizes and trees, -not Pines. I may puke on the next Pine I see.
I shouldn't say that, I love Pines, too. But I don't love people who find it necessary to insult people as way to convince them of something. I can't remember when that ever worked. Can you? Am I convincing you now? I do remember someone once saying under his breath, right after he had been up-braided by a third party who had just walked away, "You have silenced me, but you have not convinced me."
I think it very interesting that you find it necessary to shut people up on a forum. Study those words. They are mixed-metaphors when used in the same sentence.
I've been in bonsai for 20 years, and have only taken photos of the sides of trees once, for purposes different than here. It hadn't occurred to me to do so. You have quiet an arsenal. Should I wonder how many times you've stumbled upon fools like me and the others, here? You must teach the art! Do you carry a whip?
I haven't asked why the trees in your examples, or shows the world over, etc., lean forward, so your really complete answer to your own miss-stated question must have been sparked by miss-reading my saying more than once your example trees were very nice looking, so I'll say it again.
I also never said or indicated anything like, "You haven’t supported your position with trees that lean backwards with anything other than words." (I'm not even sure I know what that means).
I don't think us dummies ever got to the point of showing trees to be considered, maybe because we got hog-tied into thinking that only Pines were considered trees. Given the number of different views apparently necessary for consideration, I don't think I'd be able produce any until the snow is replaced by suitable weather. So, there. You've shut me up.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Philosophically, the Apex is leaned forward, branches as open arms, to be Welcoming as Customary in Japan.
Welcoming which includes thoughtful choice of Tea Bowl as it suits each guest particularly.
Whereas we simply offer a Packaged Beverage.
Make your Apex a Stella, a Modelo, a Guiness perhaps.
Not a Fucking Busch Light!
Sorce
Welcoming which includes thoughtful choice of Tea Bowl as it suits each guest particularly.
Whereas we simply offer a Packaged Beverage.
Make your Apex a Stella, a Modelo, a Guiness perhaps.
Not a Fucking Busch Light!
Sorce
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I don't understand where anyone is insulting you or calling you a dummy except yourself. One thing I can assume though; you have probably been doing bonsai for about ten years and have gotten to a point where you are starting to assume your own ideas and make enemies with those who are trying to teach you otherwise. One of two things will happen; you will finally understand that what you were hearing was correct or you will actually reinvent the wheel.
As far as Adair is concerned; he knows a lot and is really willing to share but sometimes his enthusiasm and assurance comes off as beating you over the head. Years ago Adair called me to task about my wiring, which was really bad. Thinking that I knew everything because I had been doing bonsai for so many years I was not happy. Finally I took the effort to learn what I was missing and apply it to my work which improved 1000 times over. I will always be thankful to Adair for doing what he did, he is a guy you should listen to.
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