Thoughts on Peter Chan? (Herons Bonsai)

[Shogun610]

People are basically insecure. All of us. In college I wrote a paper on neurosis. The paper like the year, is long gone. The one thing I learned from research for this paper is that virtually everyone is neurotic. This is particularly true of people who see light and dark and ignore the greater truth that exists in the greys between.
No criticism is directed or intended toward anyone here or elsewhere, it is simply our nature to ignore the place where dark becomes light and light becomes dark....
When we don't like something it is because we recognize those very things we dislike within ourselves, or at the very least, we recognize the potential to be as much an ass as a saint.

Ok watch a demonstration of him wiring a John Naka or any highly developed pine, the wiring job done as an example (just one of styling techniques I know I question)would be something all of you OG’s would critique. I would expect his wiring to be impeccable like the Japanese Masters and their apprentices. He has done a lot for Bonsai and has great tree’s but there is a fundamental lack that to someone that isn’t new or who isn’t exposed to high level bonsai would raise an eyebrow to.

 

[Shogun610]

Which Naka forest is that? That's awful, but I'm very curious to see what happened to it. I feel like there's education to be found in great trees gone wrong as well as the ones that are currently perfect.

I still maintain that this stuff may not exactly be for us - forum dwelling bonsai nerds. If you sit a newbie down and tell him everything you do or think on a given day, about soil, fertilizer, aesthetics, pots, etc., they're going to freeze in horror and not go any further. If you tell them "just put a bend in it and put it in a pot and it's a bonsai", well, technically it is, and now they're doing bonsai, and the rest will follow. I guess I see a lot of value in that as an entry point into the hobby.

Also I mean if I'm in my 80s and still plopping maples into the ground I'll be glad if I can even explain to my caretaker as to why, but I'm not even halfway there yet and my brain is already fried, so.

Yeah I feel you, there is something to be said about his Wesley garden, and his big grown material that is on its way. His health is impressive, and something I certainly hope I’m able to have when I’m in my 80’s , but as I’ve said before. I know if I’d wire an impressive specimen pine , half with gaps in the wire, with aluminum , and not even pruned correctly. Anyone would get absolutely torn to shreds, and it wouldn’t be appealing , no set up for future success in development.

 

[penumbra]

Ok watch a demonstration of him wiring a John Naka or any highly developed pine, the wiring job done as an example (just one of styling techniques I know I question)wI would expect his wiring to be impeccable like the Japanese Masters and their apprentices. He has done a lot for Bonsai and has great tree’s but there is a fundamental lack that to someone that isn’t new or who isn’t exposed to high level bonsai would raise an eyebrow to.

would be something all of you OG’s would critique

Not sure what this means^^^

My reply had nothing to do with the issues you addressed in reply. I said nothing about Peter Chan or the work he does. I have nothing against any of your posts or those of others regarding their thoughts about his work. I just don't see any way your reply to my post has any relevance. I am in no way offended, but I guess I just feel your response was fine and didn't need to be attached as a reply. I would certainly defend your views as a stand alone comment, no problem.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You are allowed critique other artists works.

Sure you can. Anyone can critique anyone else, however...

What would help others when you do so might be if you could demonstrate your better technique and results over time and contrast this to the other artist’s technique and results over time.... this gives a critique authenticity, rather then a comparison to some prescribed ‘rules‘.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shogun610]

Sure you can. Anyone can critique anyone else, however...

What would help others when you do so might be if you could demonstrate your better technique and results over time and contrast this to the other artist’s technique and results over time.... this gives a critique authenticity, rather then a comparison to some prescribed ‘rules‘.

Cheers
DSD sends

Sounds good I’ll make sure I live stream directly to your TV

 

[Vance Wood]

I have seen him destroy a masterpiece forest by John Naka, allow a piece of work done by one of the European masters nearly perish due to lack of proper after care. I think his approach is simplistic and gives beginners bad advice. I think some of his stuff is very good but I am not sue there is not a lot of BS salted into his advise. Other than that he is at least entertaining to watch.

 

[BobbyLane]

'destroy'

are you guys referring to the forest in the YT vid above.

i keep skimming through that one and im trying to see how its been destroyed from the tree he was given to clean up by a customer.

that one looks like its just been cleaned up. doesnt look like any styling work was done tho just pruning and removal of dead bits.

apparently he had that forest above years ago and sold it and its just come back to him. correct me if im wrong.

im not a juni guy, but its clear it can be improved dramatically.

 

[Chopsie]

If you had the opportunity to give Peter your favourite tree to work on would you?
Nothing against him but I wouldn’t, he is only a hour or so away and I don’t even think of going there nor do many I know in the U.K.
Good luck to him though

 

[Vance Wood]

'destroy'

are you guys referring to the forest in the YT vid above.

i keep skimming through that one and im trying to see how its been destroyed from the tree he was given to clean up by a customer.

that one looks like its just been cleaned up. doesnt look like any styling work was done tho just pruning and removal of dead bits.

apparently he had that forest above years ago and sold it and its just come back to him. correct me if im wrong.

im not a juni guy, but its clear it can be improved dramatically.

The tree is destroyed because the original design has been totally corrupted, like putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. This particular tree is one of around five copys of Goshin made by John Naka. As such some degree of respect should have been applied to this piece to preserve its artistic quality.

 

[BobbyLane]

The tree is destroyed because the original design has been totally corrupted, like putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. This particular tree is one of around five copys of Goshin made by John Naka. As such some degree of respect should have been applied to this piece to preserve its artistic quality.

Fair enough Vance, i do see your point.
I think Chan would benefit from having a dedicated stylist on the nursery to work with him and bring all those trees back to their former glory and just up the level on all the raw stock, think he's a bit set in his ways though.

 

[Lutonian]

I won't go into Mr chan's skill level but bonsai are constantly restyled, worked by different artists with different visions. Reworking something from a different artist is common place and Naka would be aware of this.

 

[yoru sanpo]

When I recently got back into bonsai, I remembered hearing Peter's name in the 1990s and was excited to see that he now had a YouTube channel. After watching several videos, it seemed that he either assumes his viewers have a certain level of bonsai knowledge, or he just doesn't understand that he's breezing by concepts that some of his viewers don't get.

 

[BobbyLane]

so anyway, heres the tree in 86 when Naka styled it


and again


today


im still scratching my head on this one. so i took some screenshots.
maybe destroyed is a harsh word. has much really been done? was it ever really a highly refined tree?

the first image was after it was styled, on the next page it got bushy, then on the third page it looks like it was pruned and styled again, its not clear if that is Peters or Nakas work in regards to the third page.
in the last screenshot, which is how the customer gave it to him it just looks overgrown, a bit neglected.

i can still see the outline of the pads tho

would it be difficult to restore it it to what it was, bearing in mind it was never a masterpiece in my humble opinion?

@Shogun610 @Vance Wood

 

[Adair M]

so anyway, heres the tree in 86 when Naka styled it
View attachment 378701

and again
View attachment 378702

today
View attachment 378703

im still scratching my head on this one. so i took some screenshots.
maybe destroyed is a harsh word. has much really been done? was it ever really a highly refined tree?

the first image was after it was styled, on the next page it got bushy, then on the third page it looks like it was pruned and styled again, its not clear if that is Peters or Nakas work in regards to the third page.
in the last screenshot, which is how the customer gave it to him it just looks overgrown, a bit neglected.

i can still see the outline of the pads tho

would it be difficult to restore it it to what it was, bearing in mind it was never a masterpiece in my humble opinion?

@Shogun610 @Vance Wood

Are you sure the second picture is the same forest? Naka made lots of forests. The first image and third image are of the same planting, but the middle picture has trunks of different caliper. (Or at least, that’s how it looks to me.)

 

[BobbyLane]

Are you sure the second picture is the same forest? Naka made lots of forests. The first image and third image are of the same planting, but the middle picture has trunks of different caliper. (Or at least, that’s how it looks to me.)

yup Adair, all the same, check the scar and jin just above it on the main big tree. angle is slightly different tho

 

[sorce]

We are all, only responsible for ourselves.

Sorce

 

[RoadManDenDron]

I held off commenting the first time I seen this thread I may have not even been a member

I got into bonsai and Peter chan was one of the first people I watched videos of,
Sure this led to some over confidence and I expected root work and repotting to be like transplanting vegetable seedlings I have so much experience of and underestimated the varying needs of types of tree and my search for further info led me here where I learned the 1 insult a year rule and about sticks in pots vs bonsai

I purchased some cheap stuff from herons purely because I liked the idea of an (award winning) 80+ YouTuber

If anyone in the UK is starting their journey looking at this to decide whether or not to try Heron's there is a few with a cheap Chinese pot for a tenner like a diy mallsai with decent soil about half the price.

I also bought some pre bonsai privet and it is my most expensive material I am really impressed with how vigorous it has grown and it will pass what I will call bonsai much sooner than expected! though that may be true of the species not the nursery, it was well packaged and arrived safe and wired to the bottom in a double box. Next day delivery.

There are other nurseries i have now found each has great material and seems to be a case of where to go depends on what you want.

Peter says all the time in videos "this might look just like a bonsai to many people" beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I bet there are people out there with £2 local nursery material in a pot thanks to Peter they are happy enough with

But if any question I have ever had with my trees is valid research sooner or later people will end up here!

 

[BobbyLane]

and when i say it was never a 'masterpiece'. well, it was only the first styling really. but it could of been a masterpiece already if it was trained properly, it just seems to of remained stagnant. maybe in the right hands it can still be restored and taken to that next level. but i dont think it has been destroyed.

 

[Adair M]

yup Adair, all the same, check the scar and jin just above it on the main big tree. angle is slightly different tho

I see what’s happened... the middle picture is how it looked when it was created! The first picture and last picture are more recent.

It looks like many trees have died between the first planting and now.

I only watched a part of the video, and he says he going to remove a few more dead trunks.

Alas...

I think that many tend to forget that the “art of bonsai” involves more than the “creation” of bonsai. Maintenance is required, too. And it requires dedication, attention to detail, patience and persistence. Not to mention skill.

I think anyone can see that the tree (forest) has declined from that original image (the second picture) to the first and third picture, and now down to the horrid condition that Chan is working with in the video. It is a shame that anyone let that tree deteriorate like that. Vance Wood is correct, that tree was ruined!

 

[BobbyLane]

I see what’s happened... the middle picture is how it looked when it was created! The first picture and last picture are more recent.

It looks like many trees have died between the first planting and now.

I only watched a part of the video, and he says he going to remove a few more dead trunks.

Alas...

I think that many tend to forget that the “art of bonsai” involves more than the “creation” of bonsai. Maintenance is required, too. And it requires dedication, attention to detail, patience and persistence. Not to mention skill.

I think anyone can see that the tree (forest) has declined from that original image (the second picture) to the first and third picture, and now down to the horrid condition that Chan is working with in the video. It is a shame that anyone let that tree deteriorate like that. Vance Wood is correct, that tree was ruined!

in the video he says the first screenshot is after it was styled in 84.
Vance also said the original design has been corrupted, but i can still see the pads and the outline of the 84 styling. just looks shaggy and neglected to me