Soil Wars-Turface

[yenling83]

As someone that use to use turface in my mix, I can tell you I see a huge difference once I switched over. Of course you can grow trees in many differnt soil mixes, but there is a difference between a tree that is growing and a tree that is Thriving.

I was glad to read this write up below from Michael Hagedorn, who learned from one of the best in the world. I think it's a great read.

http://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/

 

[coh]

And then we have people like Julian Adams in Virginia, who has been growing bonsai in a mix composed of 70%+ turface for decades. Have you seen his trees? They look pretty darn healthy!

Chris

 

[berobinson82]

I read that last night and thought, "SHOTS FIRED!"

I've used turface as a main ingredient since it's readily available in my area. Seeing people who have better trees than I do refute its use makes me ready to try a new substrate mixture this year.

Fair well Turface. Been a good ride.

 

[nathanbs]

And then we have people like Julian Adams in Virginia, who has been growing bonsai in a mix composed of 70%+ turface for decades. Have you seen his trees? They look pretty darn healthy!

Chris

I have never seen his trees nor have I ever heard of him. But let me pose a question without needing to see his results. Is there a better soil component out there that doesn't require you to live in Virginia and be a watering genius to be successful with it? Perhaps something that is a little more fool proof with a greater cushion for error. Eliminating the extremes with our soil conditions is the goal. From what Ive read turface can be extremely wet or extremely dry and even both at the same time. No Bueno!

 

[coh]

I have never seen his trees nor have I ever heard of him. But let me pose a question without needing to see his results. Is there a better soil component out there that doesn't require you to live in Virginia and be a watering genius to be successful with it? Perhaps something that is a little more fool proof with a greater cushion for error. Eliminating the extremes with our soil conditions is the goal. From what Ive read turface can be extremely wet or extremely dry and even both at the same time. No Bueno!

Julian has had trees in each National Exhibition and I can say from direct experience that they look as healthy as any others I've seen. I assume his success is based on years of experience and study under his conditions. Does that make him a "watering genius"? Whatever that is

I've read about the wet/dry issue but haven't seen it personally. In my experience, turface seems to hold a lot of water, so I'm moving away from it. My point was just that it's not an evil product and people do use it successfully, so people shouldn't necessarily be scared of using it if it's all they can find locally.

That said...it may work better in certain areas. The drier climates of California, Texas, etc - which often have relatively poor water quality - perhaps it doesn't work so well there. But you folks out there have ready access to things like pumice that aren't so easy to find around here.

Chris

 

[Nybonsai12]

I have never seen his trees nor have I ever heard of him.

Well he's certainly not a nobody. He's a great guy and knows his stuff. He runs a nursery and also sells great copper wire. I know he has contributed to international bonsai magazine as well. When I called and ordered wire from him he gave me tons of great advice and even offered to send me the wire with a bill and asked him to send a check when i get it. He's a class act.

As for turface, in my climate I am finding that it works well with some species and not with others. It's all about finding what works in your climate.

 

[Anthony]

I will never, ever understand these discussions.
This is something you should have worked out by year 3 of growing trees.

This soil stuff is not that difficult.

If I am correct the Turface you use is barely sinter bonded at 650 deg.c ask a Potter friend to
refire to say 980 to 1000 deg.C [ cone 08 to 06 ] and see if that helps.
Best to all with their soil.
Good Day
Anthony

* At last I realise that Yenling is Jeremiah Lee, been reading his blog on and off for a while. chuckle

 

[berobinson82]

I have never seen his trees nor have I ever heard of him.

I've been to his place. It's only an hour away. I think above all else he is a great producer of difficult pines to propagate and soft copper. Certainly didn't see anything suffering out there!

I'm surprised you've never heard his name, sincerely. His name is brought up almost as often as Jim Gremel's when wire is discussed.

 

[jquast]

I've been to his place. It's only an hour away. I think above all else he is a great producer of difficult pines to propagate and soft copper. Certainly didn't see anything suffering out there!

I'm surprised you've never heard his name, sincerely. His name is brought up almost as often as Jim Gremel's when wire is discussed.

I bought wire from Julian a few years back and was very happy with the purchase. The guy is a top notch vendor to buy from.

 

[yenling83]

And then we have people like Julian Adams in Virginia, who has been growing bonsai in a mix composed of 70%+ turface for decades. Have you seen his trees? They look pretty darn healthy!

Chris

Julian seems like a great guy, I've purchased some small trees from him and I would recommend purchasing from him to friends. They came in 100% turface which is a mix I have used in the past. The foliage of the trees looked healthy enough, but the quality of roots was not the best. IMO if Julian is this good using Turface, he would be better without Turface. For me, I need my trees to be able to bounce back after major operations and in order to do that I need to see thriving tops and bottoms. Julian uses Turface but Michael Haggedorn, Boon, Ryan Neil and Peter Tea do not use it.

 

[63pmp]

I would have liked Micheal Hagedorn to go into more scientific detail about his problems with turface, as it is, his blog post is just a rant.

I've not used turface, or pumice, so it's impossible to comment diretly on his problems.

However, I can generalize that holding too much water is a particle size problem, even pumice will hold too much water if its of small particles, and the mix becoming hydrophobic is a wax issue. Natural waxes from plants and organic matter cause water repellency, I don't believe that turface has any waxes in its makeup, so it's coming from somewhere else.

Paul

 

[nathanbs]

Well he's certainly not a nobody. He's a great guy and knows his stuff. He runs a nursery and also sells great copper wire. I know he has contributed to international bonsai magazine as well. When I called and ordered wire from him he gave me tons of great advice and even offered to send me the wire with a bill and asked him to send a check when i get it. He's a class act.

As for turface, in my climate I am finding that it works well with some species and not with others. It's all about finding what works in your climate.

i wasn't inferring that he's a nobody it was more of my point that it doesn't matter who he is. I actually referred to him as a watering genius. The point is was whether there is something easier to use out there.

 

[johng]

Julian uses Turface but Michael Haggedorn, Boon, Ryan Neil and Peter Tea do not use it.

All West coasters...I would love to use pumice if it was available in the Southeast...but its not so I use what is...turface. Its not perfect by any means but it gets the job done for me. I wish the turface had a little larger granule size...if it did I bet there would be little difference in the results between the two.


John

 

[nathanbs]

I've been to his place. It's only an hour away. I think above all else he is a great producer of difficult pines to propagate and soft copper. Certainly didn't see anything suffering out there!

I'm surprised you've never heard his name, sincerely. His name is brought up almost as often as Jim Gremel's when wire is discussed.

wow I guess everyone read my post the same way. I probably should use more emoticons to express my tone. With Gremel here in California I dont think there is the need to discuss another copper vendor. Likely why I never heard of him.

 

[Nybonsai12]

i wasn't inferring that he's a nobody it was more of my point that it doesn't matter who he is. I actually referred to him as a watering genius. The point is was whether there is something easier to use out there.

I didn't take your post that way. I was just giving info on who he was because I think his wire and his nursery are worth a look. Getting infor from him is an added bonus as well.

 

[Nybonsai12]

wow I guess everyone read my post the same way. I probably should use more emoticons to express my tone. With Gremel here in California I dont think there is the need to discuss another copper vendor. Likely why I never heard of him.

Quite true. I think everybody has heard about his wire as being among if not the best.

 

[coh]

All West coasters...I would love to use pumice if it was available in the Southeast...but its not so I use what is...turface. Its not perfect by any means but it gets the job done for me. I wish the turface had a little larger granule size...if it did I bet there would be little difference in the results between the two.

John

I think the particle size is a little too small and contributes to its tendency to hold too much water.

You've probably mentioned this on the forum before, but do you use turface alone, or mixed with other ingredients? I know Julian adds a small amount of granite grit and an even smaller amount of peat.

Chris

 

[Smoke]

I think the particle size is a little too small and contributes to its tendency to hold too much water.

You've probably mentioned this on the forum before, but do you use turface alone, or mixed with other ingredients? I know Julian adds a small amount of granite grit and an even smaller amount of peat.

Chris

Could someone explain to me the benifits of using granite grit?

 

[KennedyMarx]

Could someone explain to me the benifits of using granite grit?

It holds hardly any water so it complements other more porous materials. Last I checked it has an extremely low cation exchange capacity though.

 

[Smoke]

It holds hardly any water so it complements other more porous materials. Last I checked it has an extremely low cation exchange capacity though.

What is the compliment?

...or advantage?