Shimpaku Project

[Brian Van Fleet]

Bummer...I'm still trying to decide if it's WAYYYYY under-potted. I like the pot enough to almost overlook it, so long as the tree stays strong.

 

[Dav4]

I wouldn't think "WAYYYYY" under-potted...just under-potted. Seriously, if that awesome pot was just a bit taller, it would be perfect.

 

[Nybonsai12]

BVF, pot is a beaut, can't wait to see it dry in daylight. And I guess because of you and Dave sharing pics of your pots it's the reason my initial thought was it looked like one of the older Chinese types.

I want to say the soil mix looks to be larger particle size than I think I normally see in your trees. Yay or nay?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

BVF, pot is a beaut, can't wait to see it dry in daylight. And I guess because of you and Dave sharing pics of your pots it's the reason my initial thought was it looked like one of the older Chinese types.

I want to say the soil mix looks to be larger particle size than I think I normally see in your trees. Yay or nay?

Yes, it's an antique Chinese pot. And no, soil size is the same as normal here...it's the pot that's small!
But I have been using some larger soil with everything I've been digging out of the ground.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Slightly better shot...

 

[Dav4]

I'll tell you what, that pot is a good show pot for that tree...I think the size is perfect.

 

[Adair M]

Yeah, I wish the pot were a bit taller. I prefer to have the soil level.

Question: would you keep it in that pot on an everyday basis? Or keep in another similar sized pot and just put it in the show pot for special occasions?

My JBP that is my avatar was put back into it's everyday pot after being in the "show" pot for the BIB show.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Question: would you keep it in that pot on an everyday basis? Or keep in another similar sized pot and just put it in the show pot for special occasions?

A lot goes into answering that question. For me, the two main considerations are:
1. Horticultural: is the pot big enough to keep the tree healthy, season in and out?
2. Cold tolerance: will the pot handle temperature swings without any risk of breaking?
3. Is it likely to be broken in use or in storage? Our housekeeper doesn't clean the back yard, and my kids don't (usually) play ball in my office!

In the case of the shimpaku, if the pot actually worked horticulturally; I'd use it everyday even though it wasn't cheap. Because it's small, it will probably require a slip-potting in June...but it was worth a shot, and maybe it can be shown in May.

My avatar's JBP is in a pot worth 3-4 times what I paid for the shimpaku pot. It has been in that high-fired Nakawatari Udei "show pot" for 2 years and hasn't left the back yard, but it's big enough for the tree, and I'm not worried it will crack. Ryan Bell was a good enabler here: "use that puppy!"

My hawthorn was in a vintage Japanese pot for the Nationals; cheaper than both of the Chinese pots, and large enough to maintain good growth, but thin-bottomed and old enough that I didn't trust the free/thaw cycles.

Finally, my garden has a decent number of visitors, and it's nice to have examples of good pots and potters out there for conversation/education...and interest in the pots side of the art is certainly increasing. It seems to be a natural progression; when someone begins to solidly grasp horticulture and styling techniques it's fun to see them move on to incorporate studying pots and potters.

 

[klosi]

Hi! Do you have any pictures of new growth or is it too soon and there is nothing new worth mentioning?

 

[klosi]

Hi Brian!
I saw on your blog that this tree went back into the bigger pot. I saw that the health was in question (yellowing tips). What excatly do you think was the problem with the smaller pot? Roots really didn't have enough space to grow?

 

[Vance Wood]

I am hesitant to say anything for fear you will think I am picking at you. Can I tell you what I think?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I am hesitant to say anything for fear you will think I am picking at you. Can I tell you what I think?

I am curious; fire away.

 

[0soyoung]

I like the pot (though I would have potted the tree to the right, just about as far as you've placed it left).

There's a bonsai adage about pines that suggests developing them in big deep pots and then cramming them into the smallest pot they can gotten into. It seems to work for junipers as well, though I don't understand why. Nevertheless, it seems to be how things are and it suggests that keeping it in this pot is horticulturally sound IF it is heavily populated with roots - 'dead space' that doesn't have any roots in it is what seems to make for trouble in shallower pots.

I just saw the photos of the repotting on your blog. It looks like the tree was about the same distance off the bottom of both pots (an optical delusion?).

If so, the tree's health was restored by having more soil over its roots - interesting - which suggests that a layer of damp sphagnum or a damp towel over the soil would have accomplished the same. It also suggests that most of the vital 'feeder roots' are on the top suface of the root pad, not underneith.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have been here before myself. You have a tree that is in need of a good pot and you have a good pot in need of a good tree. The trouble is the two do not go together in my opinion. Sure the math may work, and all that, but in the end the combination of the two lacks life. I would look for a round pot for the Shimpaku and a nice "Fat-Ass Pine" for the that beautiful pot.

 

[KennedyMarx]

I just looked at the original pictures and the newer pics again. What a major transformation! Gotta give you props Brian.

 

[herzausstahl]

@Brian Van Fleet did you ever find the pot for this tree you were looking for? I'm going through a lot of old threads so I might've missed the answer to what I'm about to ask, but do you grow out your own pre bonsai stock? I know I've seen you post a lot of great stock you've gotten from Brent (whose articles are priceless IHMO), & pretty sure I've seen you mention cuttings. So my 2 questions are do you ground grow your stock/cuttings to grow them out? Do you do any trunk manipulation either by cutting or with wire as you do so?

 

[just.wing.it]

I would also love to see an update on this one.
Amazing transformation, nice work!

 

[Woody Carverton]

I love it when people post updates from super old posts like this. It really give a great overall feeling of the progression of bonsai. Thanks for bringing this back.

 

[Wilson]

A lot goes into answering that question. For me, the two main considerations are:
1. Horticultural: is the pot big enough to keep the tree healthy, season in and out?
2. Cold tolerance: will the pot handle temperature swings without any risk of breaking?
3. Is it likely to be broken in use or in storage? Our housekeeper doesn't clean the back yard, and my kids don't (usually) play ball in my office!

In the case of the shimpaku, if the pot actually worked horticulturally; I'd use it everyday even though it wasn't cheap. Because it's small, it will probably require a slip-potting in June...but it was worth a shot, and maybe it can be shown in May.

My avatar's JBP is in a pot worth 3-4 times what I paid for the shimpaku pot. It has been in that high-fired Nakawatari Udei "show pot" for 2 years and hasn't left the back yard, but it's big enough for the tree, and I'm not worried it will crack. Ryan Bell was a good enabler here: "use that puppy!"

My hawthorn was in a vintage Japanese pot for the Nationals; cheaper than both of the Chinese pots, and large enough to maintain good growth, but thin-bottomed and old enough that I didn't trust the free/thaw cycles.

Finally, my garden has a decent number of visitors, and it's nice to have examples of good pots and potters out there for conversation/education...and interest in the pots side of the art is certainly increasing. It seems to be a natural progression; when someone begins to solidly grasp horticulture and styling techniques it's fun to see them move on to incorporate studying pots and potters.

As always, you seem to explain things with great clarity and understanding. I believe this is why I enjoy your blog so much. I really enjoy folks like yourself who encourage and explain all the different aspects related to bonsai.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@Brian Van Fleet did you ever find the pot for this tree you were looking for? I'm going through a lot of old threads so I might've missed the answer to what I'm about to ask, but do you grow out your own pre bonsai stock? I know I've seen you post a lot of great stock you've gotten from Brent (whose articles are priceless IHMO), & pretty sure I've seen you mention cuttings. So my 2 questions are do you ground grow your stock/cuttings to grow them out? Do you do any trunk manipulation either by cutting or with wire as you do so?

It immediately started showing signs of stress from being underpotted, so I moved it back to a deeper pot, and it bounced right back. It was really strange to see how quickly it responded to both. I later sold it to a fellow B-Nutter, @mattspiniken so he can update us if he wants. Last I saw, it was looking good on his bench.

I have grown out stock for bonsai in the ground, but I just don't have room or time anymore, so I don't do much at this point; a few junipers in the ground, which I do wire for movement, and chop low...really low, then let them grow wild.

Here are a couple kishus, 7-8 years old that grew to 15" tall, 36" wide, which I chopped back really hard last summer. I'm growing them to be finished trees at 18-22" tall, but they were chopped back to 4-5" tall, and will be allowed to grow again for another 5-6 years, and they will be chopped back hard again. At some point, an interesting feature will emerge; likely not of my doing, and that will be the basis for the tree's design.


The few D-trees I'm growing out are in Anderson flats, on the ground, with roots that have escaped to the point that they're basically in the ground.

My best advice to you is to get the roots right first, then chop the trunks low...much lower than you may instinctively think, because in a pot, movement in the lower couple inches makes or breaks a tree.