Shimpaku Project

[Brian Van Fleet]

Mid-November update. The ovals on the trunk have been connected, defining a couple of live veins. All long runners were removed throughout the year, and density is improving. Next year will likely be more of the same, bulking it up, thinning it out, and developing more character in the deadwood.

 

[fore]

Looks like the shari is coming along nicely Brian. Thanks for updating this thread as I'm very interested in your outcome. When you and Kathy carved the first ovals, how/why did you decide to place the ovals where you did? Are you going for a straight lined shari, a twisted one?

Check your email

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Looks like the shari is coming along nicely Brian. Thanks for updating this thread as I'm very interested in your outcome. When you and Kathy carved the first ovals, how/why did you decide to place the ovals where you did? Are you going for a straight lined shari, a twisted one?

Check your email

Thanks, if you look at the initial trunk, it has some natural shari started. We decided on placing the ovals by:

• Expanding on what was there.
• Opening up ovals where we wanted the trunk to swell. In other words, if we wanted the sides to swell, we opened up an oval on the front and back.
• Trying to be sure to show live veins on both sides of the trunk.
• Not trying to twist it, but the trunk moves left, and the natural shari lends itself to showing a bit of a twist.

Also, note that each year, the live tissue builds up around the ovals, adding layers of new wood to potentially expose later. The long-term effect is very muscular, having seen a few shimpakus that she's use this process with over 8-10 years. It's not to my taste when overdone, so I went ahead and connected the big 2 on the trunk now.

Got your email...WOW!!! nice itoigawas!!!

 

[berobinson82]

Thanks for the update and info BVF.

 

[misfit11]

Great stuff as usual, Brian. It is nice to see the development over time in a single thread. You get to appreciate the amount of time required to develop a quality tree and see the the subtle changes that occur with each styling and work that is done.

I really need to do a workshop with Kathy. Living here in Sonoma County I'm lucky to see her do demos frequently at REBS meetings, but there is only so much you can learn from a demo. Nothing can compare with working with someone one-on-one on your own tree. I've learned TONS doing intermediate workshops put on by REBS members. I think my skill level is worthy of working with Kathy now...

 

[Poink88]

Great progression Brian! Though not mentioned frequent enough, we appreciate all the efforts you put sharing these.

I am lucky enough to had an opportunity to work with Kathy (for free ) working on our club's trees (club pays her and she comes annually for it). Very knowledgeable, helpful, and humble too! Straight no BS information just keep flowing from her.

I might sign up on her workshop as well which she does a day or so before the club tree maintenance schedule to keep the cost down.

 

[mcpesq817]

Hi Brian, thanks for sharing. Looking great!

Just out of curiosity, did you notice a measurable difference in using the oval technique?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Hi Brian, thanks for sharing. Looking great!

Just out of curiosity, did you notice a measurable difference in using the oval technique?

Not sure I understand the question...measurable in what sense, or difference compared to what?

No branches died or even responded badly, and it did produce swelling around the ovals, which served to widen it in the expected areas.

I don't think there would have been any real risk to carve away what I did, all in one go, as opposed to over the course of 3 years, but I can't be 100% sure on that either. I was able to make some very large splits in the trunk and branches as well, so it's been beat up. It's still ugly as anything, but it is becoming interesting, and at some point, will be a decent bonsai.

 

[mcpesq817]

Was just wondering about the swelling around the ovals - sounds like it worked as intended.

Not sure I understand the question...measurable in what sense, or difference compared to what?

No branches died or even responded badly, and it did produce swelling around the ovals, which served to widen it in the expected areas.

I don't think there would have been any real risk to carve away what I did, all in one go, as opposed to over the course of 3 years, but I can't be 100% sure on that either. I was able to make some very large splits in the trunk and branches as well, so it's been beat up. It's still ugly as anything, but it is becoming interesting, and at some point, will be a decent bonsai.

 

[fore]

Thanks, if you look at the initial trunk, it has some natural shari started. We decided on placing the ovals by:

• Expanding on what was there.
• Opening up ovals where we wanted the trunk to swell. In other words, if we wanted the sides to swell, we opened up an oval on the front and back.
• Trying to be sure to show live veins on both sides of the trunk.
• Not trying to twist it, but the trunk moves left, and the natural shari lends itself to showing a bit of a twist.

Also, note that each year, the live tissue builds up around the ovals, adding layers of new wood to potentially expose later. The long-term effect is very muscular, having seen a few shimpakus that she's use this process with over 8-10 years. It's not to my taste when overdone, so I went ahead and connected the big 2 on the trunk now.

Got your email...WOW!!! nice itoigawas!!!

Thanks! Pretty excited ; )

That was a good approach, working with what shari was there. Looks good connected. Great conversation guys.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Quick update...removed the lower left branch this spring, and will be tilting the left side up just a little.

1. After Bjorn's workshop
2. After removing the first left branch
3. After growing for several months
4. After pinching it back lightly, and connecting some of the ovals in the trunk

 

[Dav4]

Looking good, Brian.

 

[Vance Wood]

Quick update...removed the lower left branch this spring, and will be tilting the left side up just a little.

1. After Bjorn's workshop
2. After removing the first left branch
3. After growing for several months
4. After pinching it back lightly, and connecting some of the ovals in the trunk

I don't mean to dump this on you but you just attended one of these workshops so you are closer to the source of a lot of new information. My point: 4. After pinching it back lightly, and connecting some of the ovals in the trunk This is what you wrote. However if you remember it was not too long ago that the subject and terminology of "PINCHING" was discussed and dismissed as bad technique that will weaken a tree. I have suspected that we have a problem in translation between pinching and pruning, but I would like to know what you think.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I don't mean to dump this on you but you just attended one of these workshops so you are closer to the source of a lot of new information. My point: 4. After pinching it back lightly, and connecting some of the ovals in the trunk This is what you wrote. However if you remember it was not too long ago that the subject and terminology of "PINCHING" was discussed and dismissed as bad technique that will weaken a tree. I have suspected that we have a problem in translation between pinching and pruning, but I would like to know what you think.

Ok...one more time, but I'll argue on technique, not the terminology.

My understanding of the terminology: Pinching is removing the new extension growth. Pruning is removing woody growth.

My understanding of the technique: Pinching a juniper's foliage using a "Grip And Rip" method is what's considered "bad technique that will weaken a tree". It is now accepted (or likely, now properly translated) that junipers are "pinched" by removing the extension growth, and pruned by removing the woody branches. So...

DO THIS:


NOT THIS:


What's the difference? Every tip of foliage is a growing tip. The "now accepted" technique leaves more growing tips intact, and balances the strength by only removing the strongest. The "grip and rip" technique removes all the growing tips in that area.

 

[october]

This tree is looking better and better. As far as the pinching and pruning. I believe it is only considered pinching when fingers are involved. Pruning is always with scissors.

Unfortunately, as you pointed out, pinching is the ripping and pulling method. A method which I never really subscribed to. Years ago, when learning junipers, they would talk about pinching. I would think.. Umm, pinching can weaken an area. Why am I going to go though out the whole tree and weaken every area of the tree when my goal is to get everything stronger. Never made much sense. I would image that this techinque is porbably resposible for killing and weakening many trees.

I think what we have to understand is the degree of which our trees are developed and the ages. I would imagine that they pinch quite a bit on junipers in Japan. However, we need to mention that these are huge, peak of health junipers that are like 300 years old and some have been in development for 50 years plus. Of course when this tree starts to bush out and lose it's "perfect" shape, they probably do some pinching to keep the pads looking neat. Also, they might not pinch all at ones, a section here and there when needed. At least thats what I believe. Now trying to do this on some of the material that we are working on in the US can be a recipe for disaster.

I suppose you could compare it to a pine. Think about training a very young pine and starting it on it's bonsai journey. If you go ahead and treat it like a finished pine, you will probably end up with a dead pine. Same goes for other techniques like defoliation etc. There is a place for practically all techniques under the right circumstances.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

This tree is looking better and better. As far as the pinching and pruning. I believe it is only considered pinching when fingers are involved. Pruning is always with scissors.

Unfortunately, as you pointed out, pinching is the ripping and pulling method. A method which I never really subscribed to. Years ago, when learning junipers, they would talk about pinching. I would think.. Umm, pinching can weaken an area. Why am I going to go though out the whole tree and weaken every area of the tree when my goal is to get everything stronger. Never made much sense. I would image that this techinque is porbably resposible for killing and weakening many trees.

I think what we have to understand is the degree of which our trees are developed and the ages. I would imagine that they pinch quite a bit on junipers in Japan. However, we need to mention that these are huge, peak of health junipers that are like 300 years old and some have been in development for 50 years plus. Of course when this tree starts to bush out and lose it's "perfect" shape, they probably do some pinching to keep the pads looking neat. Also, they might not pinch all at ones, a section here and there when needed. At least thats what I believe. Now trying to do this on some of the material that we are working on in the US can be a recipe for disaster.

I suppose you could compare it to a pine. Think about training a very young pine and starting it on it's bonsai journey. If you go ahead and treat it like a finished pine, you will probably end up with a dead pine. Same goes for other techniques like defoliation etc. There is a place for practically all techniques under the right circumstances.

Rob

This tree is looking better and better. As far as the pinching and pruning. I believe it is only considered pinching when fingers are involved. Pruning is always with scissors.

This is the problem. I have read and heard and have seen described the process of pinching where it is actually not done with the fingers but with scissors.

 

[fore]

Ok...one more time, but I'll argue on technique, not the terminology.

My understanding of the terminology: Pinching is removing the new extension growth. Pruning is removing woody growth.

My understanding of the technique: Pinching a juniper's foliage using a "Grip And Rip" method is what's considered "bad technique that will weaken a tree". It is now accepted (or likely, now properly translated) that junipers are "pinched" by removing the extension growth, and pruned by removing the woody branches. So...

DO THIS:
View attachment 37882View attachment 37883View attachment 37884

NOT THIS:
View attachment 37885View attachment 37886

What's the difference? Every tip of foliage is a growing tip. The "now accepted" technique leaves more growing tips intact, and balances the strength by only removing the strongest. The "grip and rip" technique removes all the growing tips in that area.

That's exactly the way I was told to "pinching" of new growth, but with scissors.

 

[Dan W.]

I think we need to straighten all of this out: No more pinching or pruning... I think we should bite and nibble so that there is no longer any confusion. Bite woody areas, and nibble new growth.

This one is looking great Brian.

 

[october]

lol.. Seems like different schools of translation. I was taught that pinching was just that. Like when you pinch anything, you use your fingers and thumb. Even pinching another person. Now, if you take scissors to another person, that is called cutting or a felony.

As said before, maybe it is a translation thing. The literal value of cutting with scissors is cutting or pruning, when you pinch it is with fingers and thumb. Although this is the literal meaning, maybe the translation was different. Maybe down the line things became muddled.

Personally, I use scissors like 99% of the time on junipers. I only do the thumb and finger thing once in a great while. I use it when there is one very small extension, not wood, just a young green shoot, I just pinch it off.

I just use the technique of growing and then cutting back with scissors. Which is the technique that Michael Hagedorn uses.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

Here is where the problem resides. Define the task then list how it is done.