Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
So glad to have cheap pumice readily available and can add organic for deciduous if needed. Consider kakadama waste of money, excess of snobbery. Would rather spend on something else
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Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822
- Thread starter sorce
- Start date
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Seems the people that make it are confused... The SDS says it's not and so do the people at EP... Hum...
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
You can use 100% DE, I have several trees in it. I think it's an issue of how much water do you want to retain among other things.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Exactly the point I made recently when I wrote down my view on substrates: http://www.growingbonsai.net/characteristics-of-good-bonsai-substrate/
Gary McCarthy
Chumono
I think it depends on the species of tree. Trees that like more moisture, like deciduous trees, 100% Akadama or DE may be fine. But trees that like it drier a mix is recommended.
There is certainly a lot of information on the board here about the different mix ingredients and why they're used. The SEARCH function is your friend
Good read thanks for sharing, wish I could find expanded shale near me.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Please Humor this....
I wonder If this "misunderstanding" of trees that need a "drier Mix" can't be explained via mycorryza and Pines alone.
Can it be that a pine mix, while "drier", is really created as "drier" to promote or otherwise purposely be utilizing myc, which again balances the "wet/dry" of it....
I ask because in my experience ....
With Pine, Spruce, Juniper, Deciduous, and Tropicals in 100% DE....
I can water them all every day Without question....
People say "conifers" need a drier Mix..
BS.
Junipers like it drier....BS...
As WP has shown as well....
Everything pretty much just flourishes with a proper soil and copious amounts of water.
I think its high time we realize this "drier mix" BS for what it is.
Not at your expense @good?Gar!
It's just soooo much simpler than we think!
Sorce
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
@sorce ,
Not sure how you would factor this in, but we use earthenware porous clay pots and
glazed Chinese bottom of pot porous pots as well as porous cement pots to grow pines.
J.B.pine and Caribbean/Honduran pine.
The soil mix is still 7 parts silica based gravel and 3 parts compost [ by volume ]
Same mix for most of our trees.
The really thirsty - Tamarinds - we substitute in crushed red brick for gravel.
It is easier on our nerves to keep the soil mix simple.
The only tree we really use 9 parts gravel to 1 part compost is the local Willow
leaf ficus, but that tree can live on rooftop guttering, concrete walls and on other
tree's branches.
Good Day
Anthony
* compost holds 20 times it's weight in water.--------- for the new folk to Bnut.
Not sure how you would factor this in, but we use earthenware porous clay pots and
glazed Chinese bottom of pot porous pots as well as porous cement pots to grow pines.
J.B.pine and Caribbean/Honduran pine.
The soil mix is still 7 parts silica based gravel and 3 parts compost [ by volume ]
Same mix for most of our trees.
The really thirsty - Tamarinds - we substitute in crushed red brick for gravel.
It is easier on our nerves to keep the soil mix simple.
The only tree we really use 9 parts gravel to 1 part compost is the local Willow
leaf ficus, but that tree can live on rooftop guttering, concrete walls and on other
tree's branches.
Good Day
Anthony
* compost holds 20 times it's weight in water.--------- for the new folk to Bnut.
sparklemotion
Shohin
I am wondering if there is a difference between "kiln-fired" and "calcined."
Even Wikipedia says that there is confusion about the meaning. And it would explain Ryan Neil's weird statement about akadama not being fired.
My hunch is that Optisorb/Napa/akadama are dried in a kiln, but not under conditions that would cause calcinification (which does change the chemical structure).
James W.
Chumono
"Kiln dried" is not the same as "fired". Kiln dried is to warm it up enough to evaporate all the water. To be fired is has to have been heated to a critical temperature where structural changes take place.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
99% chance the editor of the info on the bag is a Fucking moron.
And that's just one link of the Moron chain!
Sorce
And that's just one link of the Moron chain!
Sorce
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Depends on
[1 ] Type of clay, earthenware, stoneware, or other.
[2] Sinter bonding ----- around 650 deg.c for Earthenware, and goes higher with Stoneware and
other clays.
[3] If you fire a normal earthenware to 980 deg.C it will be a permanent change.
Then there is Low fire stoneware or high fire earthenware, around 1160 deg,C
Stoneware also has ranges 1200 to 1280 to 1300 deg.C
Depends on your clay and what it's fired properties are.
Kiln dried would be heated in a kiln to say 300 deg.C
Kiln fired would have to have the deg.C listed, to be of any use.
Good Day
Anthony
[1 ] Type of clay, earthenware, stoneware, or other.
[2] Sinter bonding ----- around 650 deg.c for Earthenware, and goes higher with Stoneware and
other clays.
[3] If you fire a normal earthenware to 980 deg.C it will be a permanent change.
Then there is Low fire stoneware or high fire earthenware, around 1160 deg,C
Stoneware also has ranges 1200 to 1280 to 1300 deg.C
Depends on your clay and what it's fired properties are.
Kiln dried would be heated in a kiln to say 300 deg.C
Kiln fired would have to have the deg.C listed, to be of any use.
Good Day
Anthony
James W.
Chumono
The reason 8822 is kiln dried is so that it will work for its marketed purpose, oil absorbent. If it has too high water content it will not absorb oil very well. Maybe an agriculture grade (or bonsai specific) product will be cheaper because it does not need to be dried? (Wishful thinking)
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NFW6040
Oil Absorbent 32 qt Montmorillinite Clay
http://webmineral.com/data/Montmorillonite.shtml#.WoGwY_mnHIU
note water - H2O
For dah @sorce , digitalfire
https://digitalfire.com/4sight/mineral/ceramic_mineral_montmorillonite_bentonite_4.html
Oil Absorbent 32 qt Montmorillinite Clay
http://webmineral.com/data/Montmorillonite.shtml#.WoGwY_mnHIU
note water - H2O
For dah @sorce , digitalfire
https://digitalfire.com/4sight/mineral/ceramic_mineral_montmorillonite_bentonite_4.html
sparklemotion
Shohin
Can you point me to what you're basing this on? I know that in the ceramics world, to say that something is "fired" implies that certain chemical processes have taken place. But is there a reason why EP Minerals/Napa would be held to the same set of definitions?
@milehigh_7 can probably confirm this, but from my reading of SDSs, it seems like Optisorb DE, Napa #8822, AxisDE, and the various food-grade DE powders, are all "natural" Diatomaceous Earth (CAS 61790-53-2 or 7631-86-9). This is mostly amorphous silica. In the safety data sheets, it's mainly listed as an irritant - "No significant effects or critical hazards"
DE that is sold for filters (Dicalite, Celite, etc). is either Calcined Diatomaceous Earth (CAS 91053-39-3) or Flux-Calcined Diatomaceous Earth (68855-54-9). Flux-Calcined DE is mostly crystalline silica and gets all the bad juju symbols in the safety data sheets.
Actually -- this PDF is helpful:
James W.
Chumono
Bentonite is an entirely different animal . . .
But it is interesting that bentonite as mined is over 1/3 water. I wonder how much water is removed for that oil dry product.
Doesn't matter, off subject. I'm pretty sure I would avoid using montmorillonite, fuller's earth or other clay in my bonsai mix.
James W.
Chumono
You are correct, the term 'fired' is only a general usage term and has no specific definition such as "calcined". "Fired" could mean anything the company wanted it to be.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
I was leading Sorce to perhaps firing the clay and making it usable.
I am not sure I would encourage folk to play with silica in such a form for
fear of silicosis.
Good Day
Anthony
I am not sure I would encourage folk to play with silica in such a form for
fear of silicosis.
Good Day
Anthony
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
I agree and will not encourage others to use DE for Bonsai purposes. Bonsai requires time and a longer life is useful in accomplishing better results. If it is used, the most important part is to understand the effects of inhaling the dust, Sifting in particular. Research throughout the world has clearly demonstrated the negative effects on lungs for those involved in continuous exposure to diatomite powder. On only needs to review the mortality rates among industry workers. These studies have been done worldwide. UK, Norway, Australia, USA etc. Direct links to increases in lung cancer have also been found through studies in universities in Oregon and California. The results changed dramatically for the better once dust conditions in the mines and packaging factories were improved. I would suggest wearing a dust mask if working with Napa 8822, Kitty Litter (DE) or similar products.
Personally i found the particle size smaller than i liked. My climate, Pacific North West, is quite wet and it broke down too quickly necessitating frequent repotting. Freeze, Thaw cycles also contributed to this. Lower quality akadama also performs poorly under these conditions. Changing the media so often became more expensive and labour intensive.
Adamantium
Mame
Agreed. N95 mask or better.
What mix do you use, then?
What mix do you use, then?
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