Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

[River's Edge]

Why not both? *shrug*

If you check my initial response you should note that i use organic first to help establish microbial activity and then in some instances use additional types of fertilizers. So i never suggested you cannot use both. I prefer organic whenever possible due to environmental concerns and potential chemical toxicity issues for my trees and the micro-organisms that are beneficial to their optimum health.
However i recognize it is cost effective, less messy and simpler to apply synthetic chemical fertilizers. I do not use synthetic on refined trees or those confined in bonsai pots. Personal choice based on my understanding of the research and current body of knowledge surrounding the use of fertilizers.

 

[Adamantium]

Sorry, I should’ve been more clear. I meant why not use them simultaneously.

 

[Wilson]

The product i use is from Reindeer Natural Products in Cowichan Valley BC. referred to as Neem Cake 5-2-4 . It is a base for the mix combining Blood Meal, Bone Meal and Alaska Fish Fertilizer. Not sure about the fermenting aspect. I do know if the grind is rougher some of the seeds germinate! So i would question that we are comparing the same products.

I would love to hear more about this, sounds like a good product!

 

[sparklemotion]

Sorry, I should’ve been more clear. I meant why not use them simultaneously.

At the risk of continuing the fertilizer-based derail: Some people do.

 

[River's Edge]

Sorry, I should’ve been more clear. I meant why not use them simultaneously.

So if you use organic to promote microbial activity in an inorganic substrate and then add chemical fertilizer at the same time it compounds the dosage and can also destroy the microbial activity. That is why i would not use them in an inorganic environment simultaneously.You may want to take a few minutes on the internet and research the advantages and disadvantages of synthetic or chemical fertilizers as opposed to organic fertilizers. Many countries have very clear guidelines on how or if synthetic fertilizers can be used due to environmental concerns.

 

[River's Edge]

I would love to hear more about this, sounds like a good product!

Google "Reindeer Natural Plant Products" based in Cowichan Valley, Vancouver Island, BC. They have a good website that provides lots of information on a range of natural organic fertilizers for agricultural use and horticultural specialties. I believe the Neem Meal is a product of India and i was particularly interested in the possible side benefit of deterrence for insect pests and small animals due to its taste and odour. Having used Neem Oil as a spray deterrent. And after using it, i believe anecdotally that i have fewer problems with insects and small animals in my Bonsai Nursery.
Note: I have no association with the company i just like one of their products.

 

[leatherback]

I keep hearing this claim that fertilizer kills microbes. Anybody have any research showing this and, more inportantly, the mechanism through wich it kills it? I just can't get my head around how that would happen!

 

[Anthony]

It seems that trees use or need only 12/13 N and very low numbers of P and K
like 1 or 2.

If you over do you run the risk of poisoning or possibly reverse osmosis may set in..
Though the roots accept N, P and K plus micro nutrients, too much may kill roots
or microbes. But I understand both root and microbe can regenerate rapidly.

Try reading at Garden Myths ------ https://www.gardenmyths.com/

We use compost because it will nurture microbes etc. and there is no need to purchase
products that have organics and other stuff added in.
The lawn fertiliser Miracle Gro at 1/3 strength will satisfy the equation for the 12 N........

However the 6/7 N of oils seed meal, is something we will look into.
Will it allow the trees, to handle our sun?
As the 12 N has done for the last 20 years.[ no illnesses or normal insects ]

Additionally, has anyone checked on the formation of wood in Bonsai grown on
large amounts of N, in nature wood grown too fast is tasty to insects.
Plus will they live out healthy lives ------------- does anyone care ?
Good Day
Anthony

* By the way too much compost is not good for trees or your garden either.
See Garden Myths.

https://www.gardenmyths.com/

 

[River's Edge]

I keep hearing this claim that fertilizer kills microbes. Anybody have any research showing this and, more inportantly, the mechanism through wich it kills it? I just can't get my head around how that would happen!

Here is one basic scholarly article. I just grabbed the first one that explained the effect of synthetic versus organic on growing conditions and beneficial organisms over time. a google search for " research on the effect of chemical fertilzers as opposed to organic fertilizer" brought up hundreds of scientific journal reports that had been published. I am not a scientist but my understanding is that man made chemicals do not break down the same and accumulate over time changing the soil conditions and adversely affect the micro-organisms. The adverse affects are more pronounced with repeated use and over time.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929139301001871

 

[sorce]

Miracle gro, or fish emulsion? I had no idea. I kinda like moss...

I Love moss.

Moss is living excellence!

Unless you kill it!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

owever i recognize it is cost effective, less messy and simpler to apply synthetic chemical fertilizer

I found gallons of Alaska Fish on clearance for like 6.99 and ended up getting 2 for free....hay!

But anyway..

I would only go thru 2 small 8$ containers in seasons passed....fertin every 2-3 days.

I don't think cost is bad and I'm a cheap ass!

Too.....mixing it with water, just as a chem...maybe with a little more shaking....
The benefits outweigh any of the chores for me.

Love Fish!

Sorce

 

[River's Edge]

I found gallons of Alaska Fish on clearance for like 6.99 and ended up getting 2 for free....hay!

But anyway..

I would only go thru 2 small 8$ containers in seasons passed....fertin every 2-3 days.

I don't think cost is bad and I'm a cheap ass!

Too.....mixing it with water, just as a chem...maybe with a little more shaking....
The benefits outweigh any of the chores for me.

Love Fish!

Sorce

Agreed, i use about 4 gallons of Alaskan Fish Fertizer per year. I think it is worth every penny. I would be very happy to find it on sale

 

[M. Frary]

Maybe microbial activity isn't needed in the soil.
At the rate I put the miracle grow to plants if it does kill microbes there aren't none in my trees.
They seem to do just fine.

 

[milehigh_7]

No. I have all trees in inorganic substrate. I use only miracle grow on them. They're fine.

Same

 

[milehigh_7]

Better living through chemistry right @M. Frary?

 

[M. Frary]

Better living through chemistry right @M. Frary?

It works!

 

[Anthony]

@M. Frary ,

Mike,

the way I read it, you are dealing with millions of organisms, that reproduce.
So if you kill a million or so, another batch will take over.

I suspect any damage is to the lumber quality of the tree -----

" we grow our bonsai for Beauty, not produce or lumber "

So unless you get a battalion of insects / diseases, I don't think it will much
matter.

For us to fertilise is just to pass around Sunday with a small Chinese table
container [ think Soy Sauce ] and pour into the moist soil.
K.I.S.S.

Plus we would have to import all the organic stuff.
Good Day
Anthony

* Hey, why not do a Photo shoot, with a seed or small cutting and show
say 5 years of how the fertiliser programme worked.
Just mind the Diatomaceous, can kill even Gogeerah ---------- you gotta
inhale to fire.

 

[M. Frary]

Just mind the Diatomaceous, can kill even Gogeerah

I dissolve food grade diatomaceous earth dust in water and drink it for joint health. For real.
I have some seeds that I'll take pictures of as they grow.
I'm not growing lumber either. I'm growing bonsai. Mine just grow out faster with my fertilizing regimen. They aren't going to collapse.

 

[Anthony]

Mike,

I think it is the stomach acid or other can handle silica, I don't
know if the lungs can degrade silica, especially with sharp edges.

I do know that Potters exposed to silica dust can get Potter's lung.

Unlike iron which I believe causes benign pneumoconiosis.

Agreed on the Bonsai/Lumber bit.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Gary McCarthy]

I'd be curious in hearing from Ryan why he picked the AXIS product for the DE product he's testing. If I'm around for his next Q&A on Thursday I'll try and ask him.

So, I was able to ask Ryan tonight on his Q&A why he picked the AXIS brand as the DE product he's testing. He basically had 2 reasons. First, the company that makes the AXIS product actually contacted Ryan to work with them on developing a product that can be used for bonsai. Second, it's a horticultural grade DE product. According to Ryan a horticultural grade is different from the DE product used in oil absorbents, kitty litter, etc.