Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

[Natty Bumppo]

The nearest NAPA is about 25 miles away. There's an O'Reilly's about a mile from me. Haven't used 8822, but have used Opti-Sorb from O'Reillys. Maybe 20% sifts out through a 2mm screen. I use probably 60-65% Opti-Sorb and use perlite, pumice and pine bark fines for the rest. In 2 growing seasons so far, I've no complaints.

O'Reilly sells both Opti sorb and oil sorb. I think the opti-sorb is the D.E. one I've used. I think the other stuff is a clay product. From what I've seen elsewhere on line, Opti-Sorb has larger average particle size than 8822, but more variability in particle size.

 

[August44]

I haven’t read through all of this, so excuse me if this is redundant.

Some observations of my experience with Napa 8822 - used for a number of years (6-8) based on affordability.

In all my situations, I’ve used 100% 8822, no additional products.

This is specific to zone 5/6, semi protected in winter (basically an outdoor greenhouse).

It has seen multiple freezing days.

In all trees, I’ve noticed no deteriorating of the 8822. It’s completely reusable with respect to compacting/decomposing.

But, I have noticed differences in tree vigor based on using 8822 versus using Bonsai Jack soil.

8822 ‘friendly’:
-Korean hornbeam
-Quince
-Wisteria

8822 ‘neutral’:
-JBP - I’ve seen good results with both 8822 and BJ soil. I do use BJ for my mature trees.
-Trident Maple - I’ve noticed some growing fine in 8822, and some with minimal growth - not negative, but not positive growth. I think I’ll repot all my more mature trident’s in BJ soil next year to see if I get more growth.

8822 ‘negative’, Bonsai Jack positive:
-Japanese Maple - significantly better growth in BJ soil, all levels of trees.
-Dawn Redwood-while I thought these would like the water retentive features of 8822, it’s been marginal. I’ll try BJ in a few next year to see if there’s more growth.
-Gingko - As far as I can see, they hate 8822. I’m going to repot some in BJ next year. They absolutely love being grown in the ground in my area.

Caveats:
I’m not making a distinction between BJ organic/non-organic. I believe it’s mostly non-organic.
For the 8822, I feel the particle size is small. They’re maybe 1/3 the size of the BJ soil.

Ultimately, if money were no object, I’d go with BJ soil all the way.

Good report. Thanks for taking the time to do that. What mix of BJ's did you use and what was the particle size pls. Thanks

 

[MGTT]

Good report. Thanks for taking the time to do that. What mix of BJ's did you use and what was the particle size pls. Thanks

Hi @August44

The bonsai jack soil is the 11011.

For ref, here are some pics of the soil particle size.

I do suspect the particle size has an impact on the results I’ve seen, but I haven’t done any a-b comparisons.

And, with respect to watering, I generally water when it’s dry about 1/2-1” below the top (I just pull back the soil to check).

 

[Joe Dupre']

I'm curious how many trees people have that use Bonsai Jack's soil mix. $87.00 for 6 gallons!! I have a dozen or more trees that would take that much soil EACH. I have about 40 that would take 1-2 gallons . Very quick and very rough math gives me $1800.00 to make one round of my trees. No thanks. I'll stick with 8822 and pine bark.

 

[August44]

I'm curious how many trees people have that use Bonsai Jack's soil mix. $87.00 for 6 gallons!! I have a dozen or more trees that would take that much soil EACH. I have about 40 that would take 1-2 gallons . Very quick and very rough math gives me $1800.00 to make one round of my trees. No thanks. I'll stick with 8822 and pine bark.

That's funny and so true all in one. Scary thought for me also as lots of my collected spruce, firs, and pines take 3-6 gallons each.

 

[MGTT]

I hear you! The cost is a big factor. It took a while to switch out from 8822, and I’ve only done it for more mature trees.

I will definitely continue to use 8822 for younger trees. For my more mature trees, I like BJ soil - the appearance is better, the particle size is better/more consistent, And, it definitely helps that I only have a few mature trees!

If I could only find 8822 in 3/8” particle size….

Fwiw, I do ‘reuse’ the soil - the inorganic doesn’t seem to breakdown much, so there’s a decent return, maybe 30-50% of the original soil (some is lost due to washout from the pot during routine watering and root growth)

 

[MGTT]

And, to your comment, I should start trying some amendments to the 8822. I don’t have trouble with water retention farther north than you, but pine bark may work to give more ‘aeration’, as long as I’m careful with watering.

 

[stubmle]

And, to your comment, I should start trying some amendments to the 8822. I don’t have trouble with water retention farther north than you, but pine bark may work to give more ‘aeration’, as long as I’m careful with watering.

You may already know this, but if you are adding bark to the mix it should preferably be pre-composted. It's often sold as enriching mulch or soil conditioner. This thread has more information on the topic.

 

[leatherback]

You may already know this, but if you are adding bark to the mix it should preferably be pre-composted. It's often sold as enriching mulch or soil conditioner. This thread has more information on the topic.

I find that need highly overrated.
I use it just pure fresh from the bag.

 

[stubmle]

I find that need highly overrated.
I use it just pure fresh from the bag.

I do wonder to what extent it actually matters... supposedly un-composted bark will rob nitrogen from the soil, though I'd imagine this could be overcome with sufficient fertilization. Maybe it's one of those things that doesn't matter nearly as much as we think it does.
For the record, I've used un-composted bark (specifically ReptiBark) in houseplant substrates for years and never noticed an issue with it, though admittedly I have not done any comparative tests between it and composted bark.

 

[leatherback]

I do wonder to what extent it actually matters...

Then you have me confused.
Did you not recommend that people should use composted bark?

 

[Vin]

I haven’t read through all of this, so excuse me if this is redundant.

Some observations of my experience with Napa 8822 - used for a number of years (6-8) based on affordability.

In all my situations, I’ve used 100% 8822, no additional products.

This is specific to zone 5/6, semi protected in winter (basically an outdoor greenhouse).

It has seen multiple freezing days.

In all trees, I’ve noticed no deteriorating of the 8822. It’s completely reusable with respect to compacting/decomposing.

But, I have noticed differences in tree vigor based on using 8822 versus using Bonsai Jack soil.

8822 ‘friendly’:
-Korean hornbeam
-Quince
-Wisteria

8822 ‘neutral’:
-JBP - I’ve seen good results with both 8822 and BJ soil. I do use BJ for my mature trees.
-Trident Maple - I’ve noticed some growing fine in 8822, and some with minimal growth - not negative, but not positive growth. I think I’ll repot all my more mature trident’s in BJ soil next year to see if I get more growth.

8822 ‘negative’, Bonsai Jack positive:
-Japanese Maple - significantly better growth in BJ soil, all levels of trees.
-Dawn Redwood-while I thought these would like the water retentive features of 8822, it’s been marginal. I’ll try BJ in a few next year to see if there’s more growth.
-Gingko - As far as I can see, they hate 8822. I’m going to repot some in BJ next year. They absolutely love being grown in the ground in my area.

Caveats:
I’m not making a distinction between BJ organic/non-organic. I believe it’s mostly non-organic.
For the 8822, I feel the particle size is small. They’re maybe 1/3 the size of the BJ soil.

Ultimately, if money were no object, I’d go with BJ soil all the way.

Good information. Hopefully, you won't find the threads on Turface.

 

[stubmle]

Then you have me confused.
Did you not recommend that people should use composted bark?

I did! The tendency of uncomposted wood to trap nitrogen as it breaks down is a known phenomenon and does have an impact on the soil environment. I failed to specify that I doubted the extent to which this actually matters in a practical sense. Certainly if your trees (which are excellent!) are anything to go by, it's not as big of an issue as some people make it out to be!

 

[MGTT]

I think the difference between optimal and acceptable is difficult to distinguish for me - I’m doing this as a hobby, versus a business.

In addition to unique soil composition for different trees, the water, fertilizing, sun exposure, etc, schedules - there are too many variables in my adherence to any regimen, especially if it costs.

For me, I’m trying not to push boundaries, I tend to put trees in a little deeper/larger pots so there’s more leeway in care.

I do appreciate the input - it’s great to have the discussions - so much detail comes out that allows us to make informed decisions based on our conditions.

Thanks

 

[Orion_metalhead]

With the amount of fertilizer we typically use, the nitrogen robbing arguments for uncomposted bark dont seem to hold up.

I still cut saf-t-sorb 1:1 with 8822 and perlite and add bark. Works great. Ive been trying larger particle ammendments such as pea gravel and 3/8 red stone fines for pines and junipers.

 

[ShadyStump]

With the amount of fertilizer we typically use, the nitrogen robbing arguments for uncomposted bark dont seem to hold up.

I still cut saf-t-sorb 1:1 with 8822 and perlite and add bark. Works great. Ive been trying larger particle ammendments such as pea gravel and 3/8 red stone fines for pines and junipers.

What's been your experience with the safe-t-sorb? I tried it on quite a few trees a year or two ago as a primary component, and had mixed results. Some it seemed to break down into mush really fast, like one season. Others just didn't like it. Still a few trees in it, but that's mostly ficus with no plans, and they're not picky.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I tried it 100% one year - no good. It does occasionally start breaking down and getting gummy and muddy. I like it mixed with other ingredients where it doesnt gum up with itself. Perlite works well. I assume pimice as well. Its just a cost factor really. I dont know how much longer Ill use it. Natural ingredients seam to work just fine.

Right now, im experimenting with some more convenient cheap options for grow out that dont requite sifting. But in pots, thinks like a mix of pea gravel, compost, and crushed pine bark do well. I increase the pea gravel and decreasd compost for conifers.

Ive used saf-t-sorb in this mix as well and it seems to help the compost stay less compact and more airy.