Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

[lehigh4me]

The MSDS sheet for
Oil Absorbent 40 Lbs Montmorillinite Clay
Part number NFD 6040 says it is calcined.

https://media.napaonline.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1814122pdf

I agree that Napa 8822 is not calcined anymore. I started using Safe T Sorb from Tractor supply because it is cheaper than Napa NFD 6040.

 

[MGTT]

It seems there are a couple of variants of 8822, but, based on your experience, does it seem like Saf T Sorb has a larger particle size vs8823?

 

[ShadyStump]

Saf-T-Sorb is fuller's earth. I don't believe it is calcined. Particle size is similar. It is much softer than the DE in 8822, so will break down much faster, especially in wet climates or under multiple freeze/thaw cycles. I have no idea how the CEC actually compares, but anecdotally I've had better luck with 8822. Uncertain if it's the other properties or not. I had around 20% waist from dust, vs less than 10% waste with 8822.

I'm playing with a zeolite product right now that I can only complain about it's water holding capacity. Dust when shifted is nill, so I don't bother any more unless I really just want the dust.

What is the diffence between the two?

Calcined means it's been fired. This usually means a less dense but often harder end product as it expands under the heat.
Certain materials will respond differently to the firing process. Some will become harder and more porous, others will just become harder, some softer and more porous, etc. Just because it says calcined, don't assume anything.

 

[Srt8madness]

I got a bag of 8822 recently. Unimpressed to say the least. Have killed several seedings due to the poor water transfer characteristics. Either too much water can rot the roots, or it sucks water out of the roots. Hard pass.

 

[ShadyStump]

I got a bag of 8822 recently. Unimpressed to say the least. Have killed several seedings due to the poor water transfer characteristics. Either too much water can rot the roots, or it sucks water out of the roots. Hard pass.

People roll their eyes, but I almost always cut with an organic, usually coco coir. It holds allot of moisture, but stays loose and airy. The inorganic components ensure good drainage, but also benefit from more even and thorough saturation.
The mix generally holds moisture longer, which helps in our summer heat, especially if you're a busy sort who can't monitor your trees nonstop. Just adapt your watering style.

 

[August]

People roll their eyes, but I almost always cut with an organic, usually coco coir. It holds allot of moisture, but stays loose and airy. The inorganic components ensure good drainage, but also benefit from more even and thorough saturation.
The mix generally holds moisture longer, which helps in our summer heat, especially if you're a busy sort who can't monitor your trees nonstop. Just adapt your watering style.

I know there are people that use it straight but I've had best results with equal parts compost and perlite. I think it helps with water exchange. And keeping things airy... had worked for me so far. But if it is turning into mud after a year, I'll have to reconsider. Im also trying out bonsai jack's inorganic mix atm.

 

[ShadyStump]

I know there are people that use it straight but I've had best results with equal parts compost and perlite. I think it helps with water exchange. And keeping things airy... had worked for me so far. But if it is turning into mud after a year, I'll have to reconsider. Im also trying out bonsai jack's inorganic mix atm.

I personally wouldn't use it straight. Not enough to it to hold roots in place, and the inorganics help with root bifurcation. Straight Coco coir would allow for allow for big, thick roots. Maybe useful for developing nebari, but not so much for the fine feeder roots.

I'm going to try out a very old school practice of inorganics and manure when I have a chance. The practice went out when chemical fertilizers became prevalent. I kinda suck at keeping a fertilizing schedule, though, so worth a try.

 

[Srt8madness]

People roll their eyes, but I almost always cut with an organic, usually coco coir. It holds allot of moisture, but stays loose and airy. The inorganic components ensure good drainage, but also benefit from more even and thorough saturation.
The mix generally holds moisture longer, which helps in our summer heat, especially if you're a busy sort who can't monitor your trees nonstop. Just adapt your watering style.

The only trees I have in 8822 that are still alive were mixed with another substrate, so I won't argue with you there.
As for moisture holding, all my seedling pines are in lav/pumic/potting soil and they stay much more consistent than those I had in 8822. YMMV of course. I'll try it with coco coir on some stuff I don't mind losing.

 

[James W.]

I tried 8822 straight once. It did not work for me. I have used it with good results up to about 2/3 of the mix.

The MSDS sheet for
Oil Absorbent 40 Lbs Montmorillinite Clay
Part number NFD 6040 says it is calcined.

https://media.napaonline.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1814122pdf

I agree that Napa 8822 is not calcined anymore. I started using Safe T Sorb from Tractor supply because it is cheaper than Napa NFD 6040.

Montmorillinite Clay, calcined or not, is NOT an equivalent product and should be evaluated independently on it's own merits.

 

[lehigh4me]

It seems there are a couple of variants of 8822, but, based on your experience, does it seem like Saf T Sorb has a larger particle size vs8823?

Yes, I believe it is just a little larger. But it does not have as much dust and unusable stuff as 8822.

 

[michaelj]

I have quite a lot of trees in pure DE, including some collected California junipers that are doing very well in it. I've been using the O'Reilly's EP product recently, however, simply because it's closer to me than my nearest NAPA.

 

[ShadyStump]

Yes, I believe it is just a little larger. But it does not have as much dust and unusable stuff as 8822.

My experience was the opposite. Pushing 20% waste when sifting out just the fines. I still have 20 pounds of dust lying around. Don't think I'll need that much muck for a long while.

The only trees I have in 8822 that are still alive were mixed with another substrate, so I won't argue with you there.
As for moisture holding, all my seedling pines are in lav/pumic/potting soil and they stay much more consistent than those I had in 8822. YMMV of course. I'll try it with coco coir on some stuff I don't mind losing.

I didn't have that bad of luck, but I wasn't impressed with using 100% either. In a mix, sure, it's as good as most things you'd think of replacing it with.

 

[milehigh_7]

Sorry to bring this old 8822 thread back. According to the current SDS (as of 2015, actually), the diatomaceous earth in the product is listed as "natural" rather than calcined. Cause for concern? I have been using it for about a year and have found it does crumble quite easily. Anyone care to chirp in?

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET - NAPA Auto Parts https://media.napaonline.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1814126pdf

Yes, so calcined is what you want. The other is okay if that's all you can get but it will turn to mush. I got busy with work and did not finish signing up for my wholesaler portal again but I'll get it done and find out what they are doing with it these days. I'll even call them if need be.

 

[ERClover]

I took this Azalea cutting last year and put it into 100% 8822. It struck well and this was the result repotting it a few weeks ago. This was after significant cutback and soil removal. Pretty much 100% fine feeder roots. This could be typical of Azaleas for all I know and I haven’t repotted anything else I have in pure DE yet but there’s a Picea, a Mugo, a Crab, and an ERC. I’ve started mixing in Perlite and Coco Coir, mostly just to get more mileage out of it but everything in just DE seems to be doing very well.

 

[leatherback]

I took this Azalea cutting last year and put it into 100% 8822. It struck well and this was the result repotting it a few weeks ago. This was after significant cutback and soil removal. Pretty much 100% fine feeder roots. This could be typical of Azaleas for all I know and I haven’t repotted anything else I have in pure DE yet but there’s a Picea, a Mugo, a Crab, and an ERC. I’ve started mixing in Perlite and Coco Coir, mostly just to get more mileage out of it but everything in just DE seems to be doing very well.

Yes, typical for Azalea. Thicker roots take a while to develop, with the bulk of roots always this matting fine stuff.

 

[yashu]

I took this Azalea cutting last year and put it into 100% 8822. It struck well and this was the result repotting it a few weeks ago. This was after significant cutback and soil removal. Pretty much 100% fine feeder roots. This could be typical of Azaleas for all I know and I haven’t repotted anything else I have in pure DE yet but there’s a Picea, a Mugo, a Crab, and an ERC. I’ve started mixing in Perlite and Coco Coir, mostly just to get more mileage out of it but everything in just DE seems to be doing very well.

View attachment 539193

That’s great! This should put to bed the idea that DE is an overly basic substrate and will not support acid loving plants. How did you care for the cutting besides just growing it in the 8822?

 

[ERClover]

That’s great! This should put to bed the idea that DE is an overly basic substrate and will not support acid loving plants. How did you care for the cutting besides just growing it in the 8822?

Surface application of granular Holly Tone in addition to the normal 10-10-10 all my trees get throughout growing season.

Only time will tell on if this will suffice as a medium long term for a mature, flowering plant but it’s currently growing well repotted into 100% DE again. Even after an unfortunate total dig out from what I believe was a squirrel.

 

[ERClover]

Last note, in case it might matter to anyone, I don’t dry sift mine. I just rinse it until the effluent runs clear and call it good. Seems like a knock on it is a good deal of discharge after sifting. There’s definitely variability in the granularity as a result but I’m just in the growing out a lot of trees stage. Hopefully one of these days I will bring a true specimen into the fold and at that point will still likely use this over Akadama but supplement with other soils and sift for larger particles only.

 

[Gabler]

Last year, I found that adding just 10% coconut husk chunks by volume vastly improved the vigor of the plants I had potted in 8822. I would consider a of 9 to 1 mix of 8822 and coconut husk chunks to be a decent budget-conscious bonsai substrate for moisture-loving trees in shallow pots. For high-end trees, I would just spend the money on Akadama and pumice. Roots would grow through, as well as between the chunks of coconut husk, and that made it a bit more difficult to sort out the roots when repotting.

For deeper pots for trees in development, my ratio was closer to 60/40 by volume. The 8822 is a water-retentive particle that prevents the coconut husk from compacting into a brick in a container, but the higher proportion of husk chunks provided better fertilizer absorption for faster growth. Higher proportions of coconut husk were far too wet and tended to compact into a brick, which stunted the trees growing in it.

This year, I'm shifting to good old reliable perlite with about 10% vermiculite mixed in for water retention, and a layer of 8822 on the surface to weigh it down, plus a bit of sphagnum moss to encourage moss to grow on the surface of my pots.

Pretty much all of my material is developing in oversized containers, and perlite is both lighter and easier to buy in bulk, so it's great for larger pots and growing bags. The big drawback is that it's lighter than water, and it can blow away in the wind. A top dressing of 8822 easily remedies both problems.

 

[MGTT]

I haven’t read through all of this, so excuse me if this is redundant.

Some observations of my experience with Napa 8822 - used for a number of years (6-8) based on affordability.

In all my situations, I’ve used 100% 8822, no additional products.

This is specific to zone 5/6, semi protected in winter (basically an outdoor greenhouse).

It has seen multiple freezing days.

In all trees, I’ve noticed no deteriorating of the 8822. It’s completely reusable with respect to compacting/decomposing.

But, I have noticed differences in tree vigor based on using 8822 versus using Bonsai Jack soil.

8822 ‘friendly’:
-Korean hornbeam
-Quince
-Wisteria

8822 ‘neutral’:
-JBP - I’ve seen good results with both 8822 and BJ soil. I do use BJ for my mature trees.
-Trident Maple - I’ve noticed some growing fine in 8822, and some with minimal growth - not negative, but not positive growth. I think I’ll repot all my more mature trident’s in BJ soil next year to see if I get more growth.

8822 ‘negative’, Bonsai Jack positive:
-Japanese Maple - significantly better growth in BJ soil, all levels of trees.
-Dawn Redwood-while I thought these would like the water retentive features of 8822, it’s been marginal. I’ll try BJ in a few next year to see if there’s more growth.
-Gingko - As far as I can see, they hate 8822. I’m going to repot some in BJ next year. They absolutely love being grown in the ground in my area.

Caveats:
I’m not making a distinction between BJ organic/non-organic. I believe it’s mostly non-organic.
For the 8822, I feel the particle size is small. They’re maybe 1/3 the size of the BJ soil.

Ultimately, if money were no object, I’d go with BJ soil all the way.