Minimum Requirements

[Smoke]

You're so crotchety. Can't even accept gratitude. "Do as I say" implies that a)you're always right and b)that there's only one possibility for any given tree. Both are fallacious. Hell in most threads you'll have one person saying to do one thing and another saying to do something completely different. Real teaching isn't monkey see monkey do it is leading someone to a positive result. Learning is a journey not a destination. Just because someone doesn't take your advice doesn't mean they didn't learn from it. Not to mention the fact that people have different tastes.



Only if I wanted to. And I believe you: you don't get it. I respect your option and knowledge so I'm sure I'll ask for your advice in the future. If you can't accept that I might not follow it there's nothing I can do about that.

Make sure we are comparing apples and apples. I wouldn't expect do as I say. I would only give that advice if someone asked for it. It is asked around here all the time. Frankly I don't give a shit if you did anything I said to do. Do you ask advice, and ask it with the intention of doing it? Or do you like you say, have a different taste? How can you ask for advice and not take all the advice, but rather just those you agree with? Then hell you didn't need any advice at all, just do your own thing, thats what I do. Brian does, Adair does, Sergio does, Judy does. They have no excuses for their work and neither do I.

Just let your trees be your calling card.

 

[Cable]

Make sure we are comparing apples and apples. I wouldn't expect do as I say. I would only give that advice if someone asked for it. It is asked around here all the time. Frankly I don't give a shit if you did anything I said to do. Do you ask advice, and ask it with the intention of doing it? Or do you like you say, have a different taste? How can you ask for advice and not take all the advice, but rather just those you agree with? Then hell you didn't need any advice at all, just do your own thing, thats what I do. Brian does, Adair does, Sergio does, Judy does. They have no excuses for their work and neither do I.

Just let your trees be your calling card.

I can see where you're coming from and "askholes" can be a real problem. I just don't think it is an insult to ask someone their opinion, consider it, and then decide not to do it. You may disagree.

I don't know it all, I do need advice, and I'm positive there are times I'm wrong for not taking it. All part of the learning. Some people have to touch the stove to find out it is hot.

 

[Smoke]

I can see where you're coming from and "askholes" can be a real problem. I just don't think it is an insult to ask someone their opinion, consider it, and then decide not to do it. You may disagree.

I don't know it all, I do need advice, and I'm positive there are times I'm wrong for not taking it. All part of the learning. Some people have to touch the stove to find out it is hot.

I can see where you're coming from and "askholes" can be a real problem. I just don't think it is an insult to ask someone their opinion, consider it, and then decide not to do it. You may disagree.

I don't know it all, I do need advice, and I'm positive there are times I'm wrong for not taking it. All part of the learning. Some people have to touch the stove to find out it is hot.

Thanks. I think it would be nice for a person to come in to their thread and thank the people that gave comments and gracefully tell them you have considered it and decided to go a different route. When you have reached 22 years on the forums, and given as much information to people as I have, you will feel a little disrespected in sharing information too.

 

[Warpig]

Some are good at doing, some are good at teaching. Not many are good at both.

 

[Smoke]

I can tell you a fact. When I started on the bonsai forums in 1997, the internet was still pretty new. They were not even showing cell phones on TV yet! There were few forums, and we mostly had list servers that were a bitch to navigate. When I started on the forums people were not rude. They had not grown with computers in school, they were new to sharing information about bonsai. Seeing trees from around the world was unbelievable. I saw a Kokufu book in 1985 the year after I started and could not believe what I saw. It would be 12 years later before I saw a Japanese tree at Kokufu not in a book. It would be shared on a Japanese news source.

About the time bonsaiTALK began to dissolve, 2005, is when all the generation X'ers came out of the wood work, savvy to the internet and ready to piss and moan. Bonsai on the internet has never been the same. I am sorry, I long for the good ole days....

 

[PABonsai]

@Smoke, I will say that from what I have read from you I certainly do see your advice as valuable and very good. I know you probably don't like me and my opinion doesn't mean anything to you, and I'm ok with that. And I honestly don't know if I fell under your original umbrella of criticism in this "suggestion" because I've only been here since August. But some of your comments seem to suspiciously point to things I have said. But what I see, and I linked it in my dumb maple chop thread, is that you didn't give me pertinent advice when I directly asked for specific advice. All you did was laugh in my face and basically call me stupid. I KNEW that the picture I was uploading was a tree that had endured something it should not have. And before you go all in with the "ask before you do the work". I did. I had a whole thread a few days before, asking. And so I made a decision to chop it. Whether the decision was good or bad is moot. I had asked for advice on aftercaring for it, and you proceeded to go out of you way to come into the thread just to throw tomatoes at me. I took that as a great disrespect from you. It's very bothersome to hear you sit and harp on how everyone is so disrespectful to you when you do this kind of thing and call it "advice". If you had come into that thread and said "ok, keep it in so and so spot but if it frosts within ____ weeks just move it inside for that night" I would have followed your advice to a T because I know that your advice is meaningful.

For as much as I disagree with your opinions I do understand your point about people understanding what they are doing to their trees. And by extension I believe what you were getting at was really just making sure folks knew that when they gave advice it was actually correct. I think it came off completely wrong in your original post and the subsequent furor. I just don't agree that a select person(s) making everyone prove their methods in a forum is the correct way to go about things. And you say that wasn't the point but it is implied when you refer to "minimum" anything. No matter what it is, if the "minimum" isn't met then consequences follow. Otherwise there is no point to having a "minimum". Perhaps your desire to see people improve just comes out wrong on the forums. I would hope we all want to progress, but what if we don't? Should we no longer participate? It goes back to that ignorant "what's is wrong with you people, why are you so lazy about bonsai" bullshit. Why does not working on trees like we are all retired and have 24/7 mean we are lazy? And even if we were lazy, what does it matter? What business of yours is it how much time we spend doing it? I work a job and a half. If you think me only having an hour or so a week is "lazy" that's your problem. So do you think if we don't apply your level of involvement we are lazy and shouldn't be bothering at all with bonsai?

I greatly respect your knowledge and work. You've provided lots of good knowledge and resources, in fact yesterday I linked someone to one of your resources. I just think maybe some things sound different in your head than they do typed into forum threads.

 

[Warpig]

Some are good at doing, some are good at teaching. Not many are good at both.

We are talking about the guy who will go into a topic in the tea house and throw a fit because theres not enough tree pics.

 

[just.wing.it]

@Smoke
If you asked Bonsai-ist A.....to remove branch B....what do think they should do?

 

[Smoke]

I just don't think it is an insult to ask someone their opinion, consider it, and then decide not to do it. You may disagree.

I just think maybe some things sound different in your head than they do typed into forum threads.

Thank you both for your comments. It is easy for me to fix my problem. Thank you again.

 

[sorce]

Bonsai on the internet has never been the same. I am sorry, I long for the good ole days....

Gone is gone.

"It has never been the same" is proof it's still changing.

I know you have the power to change it in a righteous direction, but your longing for the old days is fudging your power.

IMO.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Gone is gone.

"It has never been the same" is proof it's still changing.

I know you have the power to change it in a righteous direction, but your longing for the old days is fudging your power.

IMO.

Sorce

In the “good old days”, we were all ignorant of the techniques the Japanese had been doing for generations. We were all guessing about how they did it.

These days, we have apprentices going to Japan, and learning those techniques, and bringing that knowledge back.

Do I miss the “good old days”?


Not a bit!

 

[sorce]

Very telling.

I was looking at books at the library today about power, the powerful and their downfalls.

We know what's going on here!

Sorce

 

[wireme]

Then hell you didn't need any advice at all, just do your own thing, thats what I do. Brian does, Adair does, Sergio does, Judy does. They have no excuses for their work and neither do I.

Just let your trees be your calling card.

There’s lots of trees in my yard that would be very open to discussion with anybody. There are others that I know very well what I want to do with and how I want to try to do it. For the latter type it is still very nice to hear others opinions without the requirement of having to hand over the reigns. I have trees that I wouldn’t want anyone to touch whether it’s You, Ryan Neil, Walter Pall, anyone...
Other trees, well yeah of course have at it and show me!!

Those of us who are remote, no nearby clubs, shows or any sounding boards, doing bonsai on the moon with an internet connection... It’s great to hear opinion especially from the people here who’s work is highly regarded by everyone. People like you and those you listed above. Doesn’t have to be nice, doesn’t even have to be advice just opinion, general impression.. suggestions with no strings attached...
I guess it’s a long way of saying you and everyone here are most welcome to comment on any of my threads anytime but I damn well do reserve the right to make my own decisions!

No big deal, kinda guessing others might feel similarly so I type this.
I’ll try to respond and show appreciation to comments, I know I’ve missed some..

 

[Warpig]

I would like to take a min. to try and bring this back to the OP. @Bonsai Nut I'm not taking about anything tree related or anything like that. But for me at least, feel like when the topic turns into Trump vs. what ever the hell it may be and the topic is just two people fighting when the topic was made by some guy trying to save a dieing tree. Thats a bit much. It helps no one!

 

[leatherback]

Who’s Ryan Neil?

Isnt that the guy who went to the moon.

 

[eryk2kartman]

I can see what is a problem, Smoke has a lot of expirience and years doing bonsai, which is great.
However his ego is bigger than him, he wants to be admired, and treated special, just because he is doing it for a long time, he wants to be seen as god or something like that, it bugs him that people listen to Ryan and not him.

Ive very little interaction with Smoke but i see what he is posting, most guys are right, he is big grumpy old fella that wants to be right all the time, no room for mistake.

Forum itself is a nice place i found it useful , but some people here defo feel like they should be treated above the others.

 

[leatherback]

Smoke is just having fun. Use the experience he has.

 

[sorce]

For the latter type it is still very nice to hear others opinions without the requirement

This has been on my mind recently.

I think you have a thread where you mentioned you appreciated the advice, which was good, but went a different way. The tree turned out great.

Sometimes there are many many good options.

I used some advice for the direction of my best spruce, because I needed it.

The thing about these pieces of advice is I think we both acted on them some year or more later. We ALWAYS have more time!

Besides...

This whole, cut branch A and Branch b to a half inch......
Is this horticulture advice?
Or design advice?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Isnt that the guy who went to the moon.

Fake news!

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

I can understand complaints about trolling and some of those way off topic fights that occur, but this suggestion goes far beyond some base moderation.

I've seen that Smoke is constantly demanding this of folks, he is constantly demanding you "post your trees". But then each and every time someone takes the risk of showing them he derides them about how bad they are. So he claims he wants to see your trees, but then it seems those trees have to meet some other unstated requirements. If he only wants to see refined, fully styled and filled out trees, maybe an open forum site full of learning and sharing threads isn't for him. I do not mean to intentionally disrespect him but he clearly isn't one for providing meaningful advice to beginners, only snide comments. Me might provide an answer but it will ALWAYS have some insult attached. It seems folks wanting to learn the basics are beneath him. And for complaining about trolls he will jump into a thread as fast as anyone to throw an insult at someone.

With how easy it is to ignore stuff I can't understand the complaint. Those that have "finished" trees are free to congregate in a particular forum and do what he is asking, so maybe just make a Smoke forum where other suitors can post pictures to please Smoke.

An Internet forum being treated like an educational institution where you have to basically "make the grade" isn't very welcoming. It doesn't seem logical to have a forum site where basic learning is frowned upon, after all that's not how the community is at large. I for one have been helped in lots of topics by having this site which isn't just a bunch of pictures of fine art. If this site was full of progression threads and no real discussion it wouldn't be nearly as meaningful.

This isn't an art gallery, it's an internet forum.

Don't blame Smoke exclusively for the show me your trees demands, I used to do that a lot years ago, and I mean years ago, and there is a reason. Number one reason is to see the development on trees. I always thought and I still think, having experienced opinion on a tree surpasses guessing. Then we get the occasional troll who has nothing but a bit of knowledge to beat you over the head with and an attitude the makes you afraid to question them.

Why did you or anyone else come to this forum, to show off or to learn something? We have had people come along boasting many things but showing nothing, I used to go after those individuals, we used to call the lot'a smoke no fire bonsai club. I found the more you pushed to get photos of trees the more you found just how void of knowledge some people were about those things they boast they can do. There is an axiom that states: With great claims comes the necessity for great evidence.

You wrote: This isn't an art gallery, it's an internet forum. This assumes you are correct doesn't it? In truth it is both. You cannot engage in the pursuit of bonsai without showing it off, the beauty of the tree is one thing the beauty of the work is an other. That is what this forum has become. For better or worse this is arguably the best bonsai forum on the NET, if you don't think so tell me of one better.