If you don't like perfect cookie cutter junipers, then don't look at this.

Both trees have amazing trunk, obviously.

As far as the foliage, there is no right or wrong way of doing it. It's all about the taste of the person who designed it.

If you are the designer of those two trees, and you are trying to express the desire of the human race to impose order and civilization over the wildness of nature, then these two trees will perfectly express that desire. The trunk is very dynamic and powerful. There is a lot of muscle and movement. Then, the foliage is orderly and calculated. This is how we "civilize" and "tame" nature. The trees are an clear expression of that.

On the other hand, if you want to express the wild and untamed nature, then you will obviously design a different foliage. You break it up with negative spaces, introduce ramdomness and unexpected twist and turns.

So, it all depends on your intention and the idea that you want to express with the tree. I suspect that the creators of these trees are aware of that, and made a choice. If that's the case, then I would call it art. If they just do it mechanically, without any thought, then it's craft and repetition.

At the end of the day, the trees tend to reflect the prevailing taste of the bonsai community, as a whole. I just hope that there is no uniform taste, and different people have different ideas. A good bonsai exhibit would have trees that represent different schools of thought and different styles, so that the viewer can enjoy the one that is closest to his taste.
 
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Well, at the risk of getting blasted.. Here are, 3 things that perpetuate the 2 schools of thought in bonsai. I am refering to the natural style or the perfectly manicured cookie cutter treee. First we have very experienced bonsai artists that have been doing bonsai for decades. Usually, in this case, they make the decision based upon their decades of experience and traditions taught to them...or based on the individual tree.. This is a concept that many new artists may not have grasped yet. It is not necessarlliy about one particular style, it is about the tree. .

Second, the lack of experience of newer bonsai enthusaists.. Many times, I have heard and seen individuals that are new to the art say or write.. " I don't like, that" or "I don't like the way that looks" or.." I am going to branch out and do my own thing". These words are sometimes spoken through inexpereince. I am not saying it in a bad context what so ever. When ever you are new to something, your techinques, visions and approaches will change or a better word would be evolve, over time. Sort of like the appreciation for a nice bunjin. I don't think I have ever talked to a new bonsai enthusiast that understood or appreciated a nice bunjin. I also fell into this category when I started. The first 6 months or even 2 years in bonsai are barely a blink of an eye as far as the journey of bonsai. The only way that 2 years would be multiplied from a bonsai experience point of view. Would be constant bombardment of the art in a tutorial fashion. Such as an internship in Japan or other master like tutorial conditions.

Thirdly, sometimes it is just the fact that it is too hard to create one of these cookie cutter trees. The japanese have said that it can take about 10 years to create a nicely formed and structured apex.. Are you going to work on an apex on your bonsai for 10 years? Most would say no.

As far as my opinion goes, I do love the perfectly manicured trees of Japan and other places. However, the natural styles, such as Walter's trees are absolutely stunning as well.

Personally, I do not see why the seemingly unfriendly and hostile attitudes of these different schools of thought. I have not seen the Japanese argue about it. They just keep teaching, keep creating and keep exhibiting some of the best bonsai in the world. I seem to find that naturalists argue more than the perfectly manuicured tree creators. Maybe they are just a little bit more vocal about it. Maybe it is a case where the Japanese know that it is not useful or beneficial to even bother arguing. They just do. However, I think they are also aware that if you do want to exhibit and win prizes for bonsai in Japan, some conformity to the cookie cutter style maybe necessary.

Rob
 
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october said:
Usually, in this case, they make the decision based upon their decades of experience and traditions taught to them...or based on the individual tree.. This is a concept that many new artists may not have grasped yet. It is not necessarlliy about one particular style, it is about the tree. .

Second, the lack of experience of newer bonsai enthusaists.. Many times, I have heard and seen individuals that are new to the art say or write.. " I don't like, that" or "I don't like the way that looks" or.." I am going to branch out and do my own thing". These words are sometimes spoken through inexpereince. I am not saying it in a bad contex what so ever. When ever you are new to something, your techinques, visions and approaches will change or a better word, would be evolve, over time. Sort of like the appreciation for a nice bunjin. I don't think I have ever talked to a new bonsai enthusiast that understood or appreciated a nice bunjin. I also fell into this category when I started. The first 6 months or even 2 years in bonsai are barely a blink of an eye as far as the journey of bonsai. The only way that 2 years would be multiplied from a bonsai experience point of view. Would be constant bombardment of the art in a tutorial fashion. Such as an internship in Japan or other master like tutorial conditions.

Thirdly, sometimes it is just the fact that it is too hard to create one of these cookie cutter trees. The japanese have said that it can take about 10 years to create a nicely formed and structured apex.. Are you going to work on an apex on your bonsai for 10 years? Most would say no.

As far as my opinion goes, I do love the perfectly manicured trees of Japan and other places. However, the natural styles, such as Walter's trees are absolutely stunning as well.

Personally, I do not see why the seemingly unfriendly and hostile attitudes of these different schools of thought. I have not seen the Japanese argue about it. They just keep teaching, keep creating and keep exhibiting some of the best bonsai in the world. I seem to find that naturalists argue more than the perfectly manuicured tree creators. Maybe they are just a little bit more vocal about it. Maybe it is a case where the Japanese know that it is not useful or beneficial to even bother arguing. They just do. However, I think they are also aware that if you do want to exhibit and win prizes for bonsai in Japan, some conformity to the cookie cutter style maybe necessary.

Rob
Click to expand...

Great post, and thoughtful observations, Rob. I agree with everyting that you've said here. There is plenty of room for both styles, and I suspect that most of us enjoy both. They are not exclusive, and it really depends on the tree. I have material that I am perfectly happy to design into the manicured style, because the tree just lends itself to that. And I have other trees that suggest a more interesting and original approach, and I can use wild trees as models.
Just as walking through a Japanese garden, or a nice apple orchard, gives us pleasure and makes us feel safe, we also enjoy the idea of wilderness and a sense of unease and danger. The first analogy would be the tamed, manicured tree, the second is the wild, naturalistic one. We need to have both. I like to watch Bart, the tame grizzly bear, wrestling with his traner. It makes me think that there is a deeper connection between the two, than we think. But looking at the wild grizzly bears is also a sight that we need to preserve for eternity.
 
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I have said this before but I will bring it up again: I don't really care what style you call your trees, if they are beautiful and nice to look at they are good bonsai. If you have to sit around with pen and paper and try to analyze why this tree breaks the rules (Japanese Model) and this one does not, when both trees are a joy to behold, then you have too much time on your hands and not much more than an academic understanding of bonsai; probably making you artistically impotent.
 
Thanks Attila.. I am glad you read my post and saw the meaning in it. I think that some might might not agree with some of it.

Here is a good example of this discussion. Here are 2 of my favorite trees. The juniper is by Shinji Suzuki. The cherry is is by John Naka.. Both trees are stunning and in my opinon, beautiful. Now although it is true that deciduous and confiers tend to be styled differently, This is still a good example of manicured vs natural. This goes to show that in the end, it does depend on the tree. To add more food for thought. Can you see the juniper styled in the form that the cherry is styled in? It would look terrible. On the other hand, can you see the cherry styled like the juniper here... It would look equally terrible.

This reminds me of a situation that Shinji Suzuki experienced. He was contemplating which tree to enter for one of the largest bonsai competitions in Japan. He struggled with the decision to enter a tree that he knew might have a good chance of winning or a tree that was different and that he really liked. He went with the tree he really liked. He lost the competition partly because he went with his heart. However, iIneed to mention that there was a surprise entrance in the competition and the tree was absolutely incredible. None the less, Mr Suzuki thought outside the box, but it was a bonsai exhibition in Japan.

All in all, you should do what appeals to you. However, 2 side notes. One do what you like to do after you have developed your eye and have the experience you need to judge how a tree would look good. To rebel against tradition after only 6 months to a year in bonsai is just not being realistic. Essentially, you wouldn't really even understand what you are rebelling against. Second, if you do what you like, be prepared to accept some lack of award winning in many bonsai competitions.

Rob

Naka cherry.jpg Shinjisuzuki[1].jpg
 
Can someone show me a pic of a really good "naturalistic" juniper ? Or pine ?
 
Junipers, for the most part, do not look good in the natural style. They tend to look messy and neglected. Pines, on the other hand, can look absolutely beautiful.

Rob
 
tmmason10 said:
Walter thanks for stopping in. I like the tree you posted and especially the deadwood on the right of the tree, something that probably cannot be replicated by man.
Click to expand...

Foot inserted into mouth. In fairness it was viewed on my phone!
 
Sneaky Walter...what is the reason for the test? I am sure there is a lesson somewhere. ;)
 
davetree said:
Can someone show me a pic of a really good "naturalistic" juniper ? Or pine ?
Click to expand...

A thought instead.. find a photo of (or) a tree in nature, then find a photo of a bonsai that captures the essence of that tree in nature...then show us.

Bonsai is the distillation of nature, something small representing something bigger, some exaggeration or artificiality can be expected. With better material and technique, those exaggerations can be masked, or really capitalized upon. The Tosho in Rob's post is a great example. The perfect pads aren't natural, they are a representation of how the pads the develop in nature. Perfect technique provides the result.
 
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october said:
...

All in all, you should do what appeals to you. However, 2 side notes. One do what you like to do after you have developed your eye and have the experience you need to judge how a tree would look good. To rebel against tradition after only 6 months to a year in bonsai is just not being realistic. Essentially, you wouldn't really even understand what you are rebelling against. Second, if you do what you like, be prepared to accept some lack of award winning in many bonsai competitions.

Rob

View attachment 27569 View attachment 27570
Click to expand...



I think that awards winning is not the main goal of the bonsai grower in the west. it is a fringe benefit for most and a driving force for some "masters," a delusion for others, but what really draws the Bnuts is the pursuit of nice trees in little pots. And cookie cutter styles may have less to do with style than we give it credit. This medium has drastic limitations involving scale, the complexity of living material, weather/climate, the next horticultural paradigm...

Ironically making a 24 inch tree look like a hundred foot monster in the wild requires a huge, riduculous, amount of intervention and modification by the grower. Really, all of these cookie-cutt masterpieces are just at one of many sub-peaks in their life. they get prunned and wired, displayed, unwired, they grow out again...

ignoring style is not just a subjective judgement, but is like a young artist ignoring the basic tennants of drawing and saying: "I just don't like Dega's sketches, I'll just jump into pastels" I have judged style harshly before, as it is often confused with the rigidity of judgement we use in subjective opinion. But if you ignore style as a beginer, you ignore a 1000 years of tradition that include hard lessons learned over lifetimes of sequential development.
 
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Those are great trees, but I meant a "naturalistic" juniper or pine bonsai. In a bonsai pot. Come to think of it, I have seen some California junipers styled open and natural. I am wondering more about pine I guess.
 
october said:
Well, at the risk of getting blasted.. Here are, 3 things that perpetuate the 2 schools of thought in bonsai. I am refering to the natural style or the perfectly manicured cookie cutter treee. First we have very experienced bonsai artists that have been doing bonsai for decades. Usually, in this case, they make the decision based upon their decades of experience and traditions taught to them...or based on the individual tree.. This is a concept that many new artists may not have grasped yet. It is not necessarlliy about one particular style, it is about the tree. .

Second, the lack of experience of newer bonsai enthusaists.. Many times, I have heard and seen individuals that are new to the art say or write.. " I don't like, that" or "I don't like the way that looks" or.." I am going to branch out and do my own thing". These words are sometimes spoken through inexpereince. I am not saying it in a bad contex what so ever. When ever you are new to something, your techinques, visions and approaches will change or a better word, would be evolve, over time. Sort of like the appreciation for a nice bunjin. I don't think I have ever talked to a new bonsai enthusiast that understood or appreciated a nice bunjin. I also fell into this category when I started. The first 6 months or even 2 years in bonsai are barely a blink of an eye as far as the journey of bonsai. The only way that 2 years would be multiplied from a bonsai experience point of view. Would be constant bombardment of the art in a tutorial fashion. Such as an internship in Japan or other master like tutorial conditions.

Thirdly, sometimes it is just the fact that it is too hard to create one of these cookie cutter trees. The japanese have said that it can take about 10 years to create a nicely formed and structured apex.. Are you going to work on an apex on your bonsai for 10 years? Most would say no.

As far as my opinion goes, I do love the perfectly manicured trees of Japan and other places. However, the natural styles, such as Walter's trees are absolutely stunning as well.

Personally, I do not see why the seemingly unfriendly and hostile attitudes of these different schools of thought. I have not seen the Japanese argue about it. They just keep teaching, keep creating and keep exhibiting some of the best bonsai in the world. I seem to find that naturalists argue more than the perfectly manuicured tree creators. Maybe they are just a little bit more vocal about it. Maybe it is a case where the Japanese know that it is not useful or beneficial to even bother arguing. They just do. However, I think they are also aware that if you do want to exhibit and win prizes for bonsai in Japan, some conformity to the cookie cutter style maybe necessary.

Rob
Click to expand...
Rob,

Let me say that I agree with your post 100%. It is so well thought of and written that I actually struggled whether I should share my thoughts or not.

The 2nd item fits me very well, being an inexperienced newbie and talks more about how I "feel" when I look at a bonsai. It is not a critique rather a mumbling of my feelings.

Maybe bonsai appreciation is acquired that required some form of sophistication to really appreciate its finer points, but maybe (just maybe) it is not as complicated and some can see & feel what is right or wrong (if any) about it...whether they are bonsai experienced or not. Just my thoughts. :)

On well manicured trees: In nature, trees growing unhampered will assume a dome (or conical) shape...that from a distance would look exactly like broccoli (flower). My (then) 6 year old daughter while on a bridge passing a greenbelt calls the tree canopy a "field full of broccoli"....then when she saw a bonsai in a mag a while back called it also broccoli. I guess it did mimic the trees in the wild. (I love the expressions of the innocent) :D LOL
 
davetree said:
Can someone show me a pic of a really good "naturalistic" juniper ? Or pine ?
Click to expand...

Marty Schmalenberg has a great example of what I would call a "naturalistic" juniper that was the subject of the cover story in International Bonsai, 2011 no. 1 It is an awesome tree. I have tried to find a picture of it on the web so I could give a link but no luck. Maybe some one can help.
 
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Poink88 said:
Brian,

Wow! Those are awesome yamadori! :cool: I'm envious!!!
How are the trees doing?
Click to expand...

Out of the 19 we collected, 14 are alive and well. Unfortunately, the 3 junipers I collected didn't make it. We're going back out next May on another trip and anything I bring back will be planted in the smallest wood box they will fit in.

The trees that were planted in wooden boxes or small mica pots did best by far. The junipers went in the ground (in Iowa) which made it hard to control water and exposure.

2 of the trees have made their way down to B'ham now. Here is one pondy I styled with Bjorn this spring:
http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/tag/bjorn-bjorholm/

The other one that I have here in town will be a good workshop tree for next year:
SAM_1389.jpg
 
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