Finished bonsai - Nothing to do?

[Vance Wood]

We aren't Vance....http://www.bonsainut.com/search/member?user_id=19638&content=thread
...from the profile page of member MischaelS with 203 messages...

You're right and I was wrong, he does have trees but he posted first on Feb 11 this year. My appologies everyone. I seem to be doing that more and more lately.

 

[Dav4]

You're right and I was wrong, he does have trees but he posted first on Feb 11 this year. My appologies everyone. I seem to be doing that more and more lately.

What has that got to do with anything? I'm pretty sure he started in the hobby way before 2/11/16. His trees are exceptional.

 

[Vance Wood]

What has that got to do with anything? I'm pretty sure he started in the hobby way before 2/11/16. His trees are exceptional.

That's the point. I was looking for proof to back up the postings. So now it's on my head keep heaping on the accolades.

 

[Vance Wood]

@bwaynef: Where have you been in this thread? I tried to post to your thread above and it seems I am disallowed from doing so. I guess in my 70 years I have become thick but I did not realize we could no longer communicate and that I have been shunned? I apologized I don't know what else I can do short of going away and that ain't gunna happen----sorry. So go through you files and find everyone I have offended or think they may have been offended and let them know they can take their free shot here, at the verbal rotten tomato thread.

 

[music~maker]

It's totally species dependant! And whether the tree is going to be shown any time soon.

Deciduous trees get cut back after the leaves have turned.

Fall/winter is a great time to prune and style conifers.

Music-maker, from your post, it appears to me that you like to do your cut backs in spring. I prefer to do them in late fall, prior to winter.

D trees get to grow out a bit in spring, then get cut back.

I sometimes cut back a bit in the fall, but I do typically do major branch work in the spring. We sometimes have pretty harsh winters, and I noticed that doing major work in the fall seemed to result more consistently in unpredictable amounts of die back. I'm mostly talking about chops, larger branches, and carving a bit into the trunk, not just pruning back tips. Since I started doing that kind of work in the spring, I've not had any significant die back issues, and I find the cuts often heal within one season. I mostly work on deciduous trees, so this mostly applies to those.

Usually when I prune in spring time, I will often touch ONLY the largest branches, and leave everything else completely alone. Sometimes I only shorten 2 or 3 branches in the spring and then just let it grow. This allows for a nice full flush of growth throughout spring, which helps heal whatever I just did. Everything else gets pruned as necessary throughout the season as it's either achieved it's goal, or is about to screw something up if it keeps growing. Usually somewhere between mid-late June and early August, I'll do some pruning. Sometimes I do it all at once, sometimes I stretch it out over 3-4 weeks.

But I guess we were talking about maintaining trees, weren't we? This might more accurately describe how I develop my earlier stage trees, but I think it's pretty similar for the later stage trees I have. For later stage trees, the main difference is I'd generally prune sooner (more in the timeframe you have suggested) so things don't grow too far out of proportion.

 

[Adair M]

Sure I can do that!

1/ Learn how to wire correctly. The best way to learn wiring is with your hands. (not watching others do it)
The hand you support the wire with is probably more important than the hand which does the winding.

2/ Learn how to differentiate between strong and weak areas and always balance them for long term improvement and development.

3/ Always leave shoots or buds further down the branch to replace what is in front of them because sooner or later you will need to shorten.

4/ Sharpen your horticultural skills. Eg. depending on the species, there will come a time when no work at all should be done for a year or more to allow the
tree to continue holding it's vigour, without which you can never hope for a long term refined tree.

5/ Know the peculiarities of your particular tree species and what it likes/dislikes.

6/ Periodically clean the bark and twigs and remove old needles to encourage existing buds and potential back budding. Learn to love tweezers. Learn how to pull off leaves without tearing bark.

8/ Always allow for transmission of light to reach all areas of the tree. Thinning is vital.

9/ Learn how to graft.

10/ The more refined and dense a tree becomes, the more likely you will find pests invading it. Be ready.

11/ When working on the tree, do not rush to finish the work. After a couple of hours your concentration starts to wane. Wiring becomes sloppy and mistakes are made. Leave it until later.

12/ Learn how to manage broken branches. Repair them, use them, or remove them. keep an open mind.

13/ Don't forget the container. Study which will best compliment the tree rather that overpower it. (even if you can't afford the right pot at the moment) (me!)

14/ Take plenty of photos so you can see if you are making the correct decisions to achieve what you want.

15/ Learn how to plant moss or dress the soil surface correctly when taking pic or exhibiting. It's surprizing how many don't know how or bother.

16/ Look at as many other refined trees as you can for on going inspiration. You can get bored with any tree!

17/ Don't overwork a tree to the point where it suffers physically.

18/ Don't overwork a tree to the point where it suffers visually.

19/........................

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22/..........

Thanks, excellent post Michael!

My whole purpose for this thread was to show those who may be somewhat new to bonsai who have never had the opportunity to work on a really refined tree that there is work to be done. Sometimes extensive!

I personally keep a rather small collection. (Well, for someone who is as obscessed as I am with bonsai, I consider it small! About 25 trees.). At this point in my bonsai "career", I am more into quality than quantity, more into refinement than "creation".

And, I enjoy helping others learn about bonsai. I try to keep others from making the newbie mistakes I made over the past 45 years. Things that "if I had only known" would have made learning the (art, craft, performance, participation... Take your pick of whatever your perception of bonsai is) less frustrating.

 

[Adair M]

I sometimes cut back a bit in the fall, but I do typically do major branch work in the spring. We sometimes have pretty harsh winters, and I noticed that doing major work in the fall seemed to result more consistently in unpredictable amounts of die back. I'm mostly talking about chops, larger branches, and carving a bit into the trunk, not just pruning back tips. Since I started doing that kind of work in the spring, I've not had any significant die back issues, and I find the cuts often heal within one season. I mostly work on deciduous trees, so this mostly applies to those.

Usually when I prune in spring time, I will often touch ONLY the largest branches, and leave everything else completely alone. Sometimes I only shorten 2 or 3 branches in the spring and then just let it grow. This allows for a nice full flush of growth throughout spring, which helps heal whatever I just did. Everything else gets pruned as necessary throughout the season as it's either achieved it's goal, or is about to screw something up if it keeps growing. Usually somewhere between mid-late June and early August, I'll do some pruning. Sometimes I do it all at once, sometimes I stretch it out over 3-4 weeks.

But I guess we were talking about maintaining trees, weren't we? This might more accurately describe how I develop my earlier stage trees, but I think it's pretty similar for the later stage trees I have. For later stage trees, the main difference is I'd generally prune sooner (more in the timeframe you have suggested) so things don't grow too far out of proportion.

You might try doing the fall cut backs a little earlier in the fall. In Japan, they tend to do it just when the deciduous trees are past the peak of fall color. They cut off the leaves, then cut back. At that time, the trees are still preparing for winter, so they can still compartmentalize the cuts. Of course, apply cut paste!

Yeah, I know, it's hard to cut off those pretty leaves!

 

[music~maker]

You might try doing the fall cut backs a little earlier in the fall. In Japan, they tend to do it just when the deciduous trees are past the peak of fall color. They cut off the leaves, then cut back. At that time, the trees are still preparing for winter, so they can still compartmentalize the cuts. Of course, apply cut paste!

Yeah, I know, it's hard to cut off those pretty leaves!

Ah, that's definitely a difference then. When I have cut back in the fall, I think it's typically been well after leaf drop or damn close to it. I can see how they'd still be active enough at the earlier point to compartmentalize. The obvious advantage I've seen with fall pruning is that the tree seems more likely to produce a solid crop of back-buds for you in the spring. I'll probably try this with a couple trees this season to see how it goes.

So what purpose does defoliating serve at that point?

 

[LanceMac10]

So what purpose does defoliating serve at that point?

Visual clarity, I presume.
I'm a bit hesitant to cut back in the fall up here. Timing is tricky as the weather can turn on a dime, of which I'm sure you are aware!!

 

[Adair M]

Defoliating let's them see what's there. With leaves in the way, it's hard to see the buds and twigs.

But, leaving the petioles, they know where buds are. Since there's a bud at the base of the petiole. So, they may choose to cut back to there.

Then, after cutback, they spray with dilute lime sulphur before putting them in winter storage.

 

[music~maker]

[=
But the point is that IF you choose to bring a tree like that to a show and IF you choose to have it compete with all the others, you have absolutely NO choice when, where or what you do. You do what is EXPECTED. How on earth can that be considered art?

That's a fair point, though I don't show my trees (or at least haven't to date), so don't see things through that filter. Nobody expects anything of my trees but me. I intellectually understand what you're saying but don't have the first-hand perspective on that one. But even with those constraints in place, I would probably still argue that it's art. In fact, sometimes the best art arises from constraints.

For example, I play blues harmonica. The blues scale is the very definition of a constraint. You're either playing within the scale or you are not. Yet some of the most beautiful, creative music ever created lives within it. And if somebody masters a piece of music enough to perform it well, and maybe even improvise within it, they are constrained by the piece and by the scale, but their individual creativity comes out in more subtle ways. You know when you're listening to somebody who has mastered the instrument, and there's no question that they'd be called an artist, even if they're covering somebody else's work. It's the performance itself that's the art. Similarly, how is the masterful performance of creating a particular tree, even a very standard style, NOT art?

[=
Do you really believe Bjorn consciously chose to do that work in that way and achieve that outcome? That decision was made by outside forces. We are all slaves to convention to some point. All I'm saying is it's good to be aware of that.

Of course he consciously chose to do that work in that way! He wasn't asleep when he worked on that tree! It sounds like what you're really saying is that he just followed a formula ad nauseum and out popped that tree. In my experience, the material is almost never so formulaic as to allow you to take such an approach.

[=
That's the problem with definitions of art. Talk about nebulous! But anyway, take the first part. Where is the imagination in doing what has been done before? It's skill AND imagination. Not skill OR imagination.

Ok, this is the crux of it. First, I don't believe it has been done before. How could it be? The tree is continually changing, and the tree he sees before him is different than any other tree that's ever existed. It may be very similar to other trees, but they are definitely all unique.

Similarly, if I paint a picture of the Eiffel tower, something that's been painted and photographed countless times, is my painting not art?? It may not be good art, and it may not be the most original art, but it's still an artistic expression that originated from me. I just don't see how things like this are NOT art, frankly. Similarly, I just don't see how what he's created here is not art, even if it's quite similar to other trees shaped in this style.

When I approach material that's already been worked, I still have to consciously envision the new, more refined form that I desire in order to do the work. I think saying there's no imagination required here is a HUGE assumption on your part, and one that would only be settled by speaking with Bjorn himself about his process.

[=
Thanks music maker for taking the trouble to reply. It's been fun! I think we had better stop now because the thread is drifting away from Adair's initial message.
But it's his fault because he used the word artist. (just kidding )

Yes, this has been an interesting discussion. It doesn't seem that we're likely to convince each other of anything here, but always good to explore alternative points of view.

 

[music~maker]

Visual clarity, I presume.
I'm a bit hesitant to cut back in the fall up here. Timing is tricky as the weather can turn on a dime, of which I'm sure you are aware!!

Yeah, that's what I figured. Just making sure it wasn't something more subtle, like somehow redirecting more energy to bud development or something else I hadn't considered. Visual clarity makes a whole lot more sense.

 

[bwaynef]

@bwaynef: Where have you been in this thread? I tried to post to your thread above and it seems I am disallowed from doing so. I guess in my 70 years I have become thick but I did not realize we could no longer communicate and that I have been shunned? I apologized I don't know what else I can do short of going away and that ain't gunna happen----sorry. So go through you files and find everyone I have offended or think they may have been offended and let them know they can take their free shot here, at the verbal rotten tomato thread.

Oh save the woe is me bit. I saw that someone else had taken you to task for mistakenly calling MichaelS out so I deleted my 15 second-old comment since it was redundant.

 

[MichaelS]

"Adair M,
I personally keep a rather small collection. (Well, for someone who is as obscessed as I am with bonsai, I consider it small! About 25 trees.). At this point in my bonsai "career", I am more into quality than quantity, more into refinement than "creation".[/QUOTE]

That is an excellent point Adair and I can't think why I forgot to mention it. It should have been point #1! It is something which affects most people. Quality and quantity don't mix.

 

[MichaelS]

music~maker,

For example, I play blues harmonica. The blues scale is the very definition of a constraint. You're either playing within the scale or you are not.

From memory, C - E flat - F - F sharp - G - B flat - C?

Similarly, how is the masterful performance of creating a particular tree, even a very standard style, NOT art?

It is art, but my argument is that this tree was not ''created'' Anyway, I doesn't really matter. It's just a word and that kind of work is definitely part of bonsai whatever you call it.

Of course he consciously chose to do that work in that way! He wasn't asleep when he worked on that tree! It sounds like what you're really saying is that he just followed a formula ad nauseum and out popped that tree.

Yeah kind of.

When I approach material that's already been worked, I still have to consciously envision the new, more refined form that I desire in order to do the work. I think saying there's no imagination required here is a HUGE assumption on your part, and one that would only be settled by speaking with Bjorn himself about his process.

Well no, not really. When I do this kind of work (on a much smaller scale of course) It's pretty much robotic. No imagination required. In other words you don't need to ''consider'' what to. You just do what needs to be done.

Yes, this has been an interesting discussion. It doesn't seem that we're likely to convince each other of anything here, but always good to explore alternative points of view.

Agree.

 

[Anthony]

MichaelS,

can no longer reply as I have kidnapped him for his Ulmus p. When he gives me the tree, he will be released, until I go after another of his efforts.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[M. Frary]

MichaelS,

can no longer reply as I have kidnapped him for his Ulmus p. When he gives me the tree, he will be released, until I go after another of his efforts.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony,what have you been told about keeping people for pets?
It's a no,no. Remember?

 

[Dav4]

Hmmm...restyle???

Ahhh, just kidding! I just love Bjorn's work! His refinement truly transforms these trees.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1228386813861798