The Only Finished Bonsai is a Dead Bonsai

[music~maker]

I guarantee it is precisely that, the same tree. For so long the mantra in the bonsai comunity was that you cannot develop a bonsai from nursery material. I, having no choice other than seed or nothing, have chosen to use the nursery trade for my material. As you can see, trees in confinement can develop in amazing ways, just like trees in nature confined in poor environments and limited space grow and impart interesting traits.

The catch with nursery material is that it usually needs to develop for a while to become even good pre-bonsai. Many people seem to have neither the vision nor the patience for that project. I love finding decent nursery material that still needs work. It means that I can influence how it matures over the next 5-10 years. That's an opportunity you just don't always get with already-mature or developed trees.

 

[sorce]

The catch with nursery material is that it usually needs to develop for a while to become even good pre-bonsai. Many people seem to have neither the vision nor the patience for that project. I love finding decent nursery material that still needs work. It means that I can influence how it matures over the next 5-10 years. That's an opportunity you just don't always get with already-mature or developed trees.

IMO.

Nursery Material is just about as good as most prebonsai stuff anyway.

At least that I see. And F buying stuff online, if for the simple fact it ain't from
Round here!

A bonsai pot doesn't make anything closer to good, the contrary would be more true I reckon.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

The old mantra that you cannot make a good bonsai from nursery material is not correct. You can make good bonsai from nursery material if you take the time to sort through mountians of options. In a way it is a lot like finding Yamidori in reverse.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Enjoyed your thread post @Vance ...again...proves to point why when I hear or read one single word...my mind correlates it back to you...that word is MUGO.

 

[Vance Wood]

You are very kind. I am glad to consider you a friend.

 

[Giga]

I like the mugo very much but, not trying to be argumentative here, but where was this stigma you have about you can't do things with nursery material. Almost every single video and post you do has this. I don't know why you feel you need to post it all the time. It over on internet bonsai forum too. You do good work on these tree and I think you should just drop the whole woe as me thing and just let these fantastic tree's of yours speak for them selves. Started bonsai 15 years ago and I bought nursery material, like many do when first starting out and-it's not the bonsai material can't be used, it's that we don't know what to look for to be good bonsai. Your video's and post dispel that and help many people out. I think the chip on the shoulders though can be wiped away. Sorry if I'm an ass here but it's the internet and I must voice my opinion right

 

[Vance Wood]

The only reason I mention nursery trees is because people still condemn the nursery trade as a viable source for good material. The nursery trade is where I get at least 90% of my trees. The prejudice toward nursery trees is not as bad as it used to be but I still run into it. I'm sorry it bothers you. I feel partly responsible for that change in opinion. I may not be producing world class trees yet but I think I have proved I am headed in that direction.

I take the criticizm kindly I will consider changing things. But; do you think my tendency to do that comes from nothing??? I have been on this forum since 2006, actually I have been on one forum or another since the mid 1990's. I have had threads dedicated to this argument with people for years, since the old Garden Web Bonsai forum, Bonsai Talk, Bonsai Chat, The Art if Bonsai, Bonsai Tree Forums, and Internet Bonsai Club. Only the last two are still functioning other than this one. In one form or another I have had to eat the "You can't make good bonsai from nursery trees" pizza.

 

[wireme]

This is my $2.98 Mugo Pine bonsai. I started some additional work on the tree this spring documented in a video. I decided to start some tightening up of the design this afternoon. I know there are thought out there to the effect as to why I don't leave it alone. The point is there is nothing that cannot be made better. View attachment 86908

The tree is starting to do what Mugos do. The growth is becoming more compact, the bark is starting to take on a more aged look and the trunk is thickening.

It has been said that trees do not thicken in a bonsai pot. Granted; ten years but still the trunk has matured and I don't feel the tree is or has been a wast of time.

Yep, not a waste of time at all, it's become very nice and I'm sure the journey has been fulfilling.
I still have the first tree I collected, I posted it on the old gardenweb forum after collection and was told it was a waste of time and not to bother collecting sticks. I've had a great time with that tree and I would still happily collect another just like it.

 

[Vance Wood]

The people that argue these things don't seem to realize that all trees even those that are in the drool all over category, started from seed and sticks. What is true is that you cannot cultivate time effectively, that has to be collected for the most part. So basically when you collect a tree you are collecting centuries of growth.

 

[Giga]

The only reason I mention nursery trees is because people still condemn the nursery trade as a viable source for good material. The nursery trade is where I get at least 90% of my trees. The prejudice toward nursery trees is not as bad as it used to be but I still run into it. I'm sorry it bothers you. I feel partly responsible for that change in opinion. I may not be producing world class trees yet but I think I have proved I am headed in that direction.

I take the criticizm kindly I will consider changing things. But; do you think my tendency to do that comes from nothing??? I have been on this forum since 2006, actually I have been on one forum or another since the mid 1990's. I have had threads dedicated to this argument with people for years, since the old Garden Web Bonsai forum, Bonsai Talk, Bonsai Chat, The Art if Bonsai, Bonsai Tree Forums, and Internet Bonsai Club. Only the last two are still functioning other than this one. In one form or another I have had to eat the "You can't make good bonsai from nursery trees" pizza.

It's not that you don't have a valid argument and some of my material if from nurseries too, its ever post we hear your sad story and I don't click on some these threads because I'd rather see the progression in one thread, like many do here, then a new thread with one of your trees and the story of how every hates on me for keeping this nursery material. The other thing is now it's just crying wolf as no one thinks that(mostly now-a-days) about nursery material. But every man needs a hobby lol


anyway i'll leave it at that I don't want to be that guy that starts something, more then I already am anyway

 

[wireme]

The people that argue these things don't seem to realize that all trees even those that are in the drool all over category, started from seed and sticks. What is true is that you cannot cultivate time effectively, that has to be collected for the most part. So basically when you collect a tree you are collecting centuries of growth.

Or not, young collected trees can be fun too, just like nursery stock.
The tree I mentioned really was little more than a stick, maybe 10yrs old in 2003 or so. I don't have the original pics any more, here it is now, also not dead yet, ie, not finished. Maybe it is still considered a waste of time by many, I don't really know, but I know I don't feel that way about it.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

The old mantra that you cannot make a good bonsai from nursery material is not correct. You can make good bonsai from nursery material if you take the time to sort through mountians of options. In a way it is a lot like finding Yamidori in reverse.

A guy at the club found a Mugo just about PERFECT from the nursery. AND it's a scam nursery that specializes in putting little plants in BIG containers and then having a BIG SALE.

But....in this one case, the lil tree was SO nice I wanted to shoot either the guy who got it or myself for avoiding the nursery.

 

[Vance Wood]

It's not that you don't have a valid argument and some of my material if from nurseries too, its ever post we hear your sad story and I don't click on some these threads because I'd rather see the progression in one thread, like many do here, then a new thread with one of your trees and the story of how every hates on me for keeping this nursery material. The other thing is now it's just crying wolf as no one thinks that(mostly now-a-days) about nursery material. But every man needs a hobby lol


anyway i'll leave it at that I don't want to be that guy that starts something, more then I already am anyway

I'll remember that when I find myself starting to make that kind of observation. I don't think I make that statement on every post, If I do you are right but I don't think you are. If it is as you say; you enjoy my threads and videos, you could have started a PM and discussed privately friend to friend, rather than post it in the open which puts your motives in question. Do you really care or are you just looking for an opportunity to embarrass me?

 

[Vance Wood]

A guy at the club found a Mugo just about PERFECT from the nursery. AND it's a scam nursery that specializes in putting little plants in BIG containers and then having a BIG SALE.

But....in this one case, the lil tree was SO nice I wanted to shoot either the guy who got it or myself for avoiding the nursery.

I try to never ignore a source. There are still a lot of people that think the Mugo is a second rate tree, depending on who you talk to. It is possible this guy got hold of this tree but bought into that same rhetoric and though he was selling trash, which is what the guy he bought it from thought, and so on.

Or not, young collected trees can be fun too, just like nursery stock.
The tree I mentioned really was little more than a stick, maybe 10yrs old in 2003 or so. I don't have the original pics any more, here it is now, also not dead yet, ie, not finished. Maybe it is still considered a waste of time by many, I don't really know, but I know I don't feel that way about it.

I hope you did not think I was poo-pooing your choice of collecting this tree. Though your little Doug Fir is not one of the Centurion trees most of the proponents of collecting would have posted on the INTERNET it is none-the-less a species not common in the nursery trade. If I had had the opportunity to collect this tree I would have even though there are individuals that say a Douglas Fir is not good for bonsai. Ryan Neil has decided to conquer this species. It has some wonderful characteristics that I like.

 

[lieuz]

As always Mr Wood, your thread is full of wise words and inspiration. It's hard to find anything out here from nursery, I've often contemplated going into the woods to see what I could find but lack the experience.

 

[Vance Wood]

As always Mr Wood, your thread is full of wise words and inspiration. It's hard to find anything out here from nursery, I've often contemplated going into the woods to see what I could find but lack the experience.

There are a few good species of trees that grow in Virginia you just need to find someone who can help you. Thank you for your encouraging words.

 

[Adair M]

Vance, there's nothing wrong with Mugo as a species if you live in a suitable climate. Landscape nurseries have traditionally treated these as shrubs, so they've been pruned as shrubs rather than as trees. So the early work you have to do is undo what the nurseries have been doing for 5 years.

You know those nice JBP that Eric shows on his "A few pine seeds 6 years later" thread? He started those because Boon told him that he could grow out seedlings faster than he could fix the flaws in nursery JBP.

Just think what you could have done with your Mugos had you done that, too!

 

[wireme]

I try to never ignore a source. There are still a lot of people that think the Mugo is a second rate tree, depending on who you talk to. It is possible this guy got hold of this tree but bought into that same rhetoric and though he was selling trash, which is what the guy he bought it from thought, and so on.

I hope you did not think I was poo-pooing your choice of collecting this tree. Though your little Doug Fir is not one of the Centurion trees most of the proponents of collecting would have posted on the INTERNET it is none-the-less a species not common in the nursery trade. If I had had the opportunity to collect this tree I would have even though there are individuals that say a Douglas Fir is not good for bonsai. Ryan Neil has decided to conquer this species. It has some wonderful characteristics that I like.

Nope, I didn't detect any poo pooing, no worries there!
Mostly showing the tree was a way of saying I agree with you, many things said to be a waste in time may actually be a perfectly fine way to spend it. Nice to hear you would not consider it a waste of effort too though. The poster who told me it was is still around, maybe I'll ask him someday.....
You may have seen that I can and sometimes do collect some pretty good Yamadori type stuff. I certainly don't think that's the end all only way to go, I see lots of material in nurseries that I'd love to work on and think would turn out really good eventually. Developing nursery stock is awesome really.
It would be fun to see examples of the best trees made from nursery stock that are around today.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, there's nothing wrong with Mugo as a species if you live in a suitable climate. Landscape nurseries have traditionally treated these as shrubs, so they've been pruned as shrubs rather than as trees. So the early work you have to do is undo what the nurseries have been doing for 5 years.

You know those nice JBP that Eric shows on his "A few pine seeds 6 years later" thread? He started those because Boon told him that he could grow out seedlings faster than he could fix the flaws in nursery JBP.

Just think what you could have done with your Mugos had you done that, too!

That is something to think about. I do have a source for young Mugos I may give them a try in that direction.

 

[Vance Wood]

Nope, I didn't detect any poo pooing, no worries there!
Mostly showing the tree was a way of saying I agree with you, many things said to be a waste in time may actually be a perfectly fine way to spend it. Nice to hear you would not consider it a waste of effort too though. The poster who told me it was is still around, maybe I'll ask him someday.....
You may have seen that I can and sometimes do collect some pretty good Yamadori type stuff. I certainly don't think that's the end all only way to go, I see lots of material in nurseries that I'd love to work on and think would turn out really good eventually. Developing nursery stock is awesome really.
It would be fun to see examples of the best trees made from nursery stock that are around today.

The problem you are going to have is very much like those I had with Mugos, no reliable source of information. Let me know what you are finding out.