Finished bonsai - Nothing to do?

[Adair M]

I have no idea of Kumura's garden. As to ownership of the trees.

Does it matter?

All the trees there would be styled by him. The bulk of the work on most of them would be done by his apprentices. Then he would come along behind and "adjust".

 

[MichaelS]

I'm not entirely sure you are aware of the "eye" this so-called "maintenance" requires.

Yes, in styling a tree like so, there are horticultural needs that take precedent. However, a total wiring, thinning, and branch/pad placement is essentially what the ART of bonsai is.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. When I do this kind of thinning and adjusting to my trees I don't consider it as doing art. The initial selection of the branches on that juniper were already there and remain in the same position. The art is selecting the tree, positioning the tree, selecting growing and arranging the branches to achieve the vision. We call this ''creation'' Bringing an outgrown tree back to it's initial form is maintenance.
Here's the art part for you:

Also, what's the actual point of a video showing 4 days work in time lapse. I mean what is it supposed to show you, teach you?? Come on now, why do you folks get caught up in this hollywood bullshit. These kinds of ''demos'' are a bit of a joke surely! Instead, let's see one branch worked on from all angles in detail over 1 hour and at normal speed. That could be instructive.

 

[Vance Wood]

Could bed boring too. But it could be done. Then what might you find to be critical about?

 

[MichaelS]

Could bed boring too. But it could be done. Then what might you find to be critical about?

I have no idea what that means

Oh I just worked out that you're talking about - the detailed branch video Ah ha!
Well, if it's boring you either already know all about it or you don't want to know anything about it. I for one would certainly not be critical of such a video which genuinely attempts to demonstrate how to do something rather than ''look what I can do'' I hate that shit! I don't care who it is.

 

[Vance Wood]

Could mean that I fat fingered the computer and because it came up with a legitimate word I did not get a spell check alert. In answer to your actual question I meant to say "Could be boring". It seems that you have a bit of an argumentative attitude to your post which leads me to ask the question: Do you really care about this discussion or are you just looking to stir the pot so to speak. The tree in the video was restyled not just groomed, if you don't see that and you claim to have watched the video it means one of two things: You don't know anything about the finer points of bonsai or you are so highly evolved above the rest of us mortals you must be a master in your own right. How about sharing some of your personal work and the trees you are currently working on. If you can how about a video? That would be nice. A video of your own.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have no idea what that means

Oh I just worked out that you're talking about - the detailed branch video Ah ha!
Well, if it's boring you either already know all about it or you don't want to know anything about it. I for one would certainly not be critical of such a video which genuinely attempts to demonstrate how to do something rather than ''look what I can do'' I hate that shit! I don't care who it is.

I see; you just want to fight with people. As far as I am concerned I will not respond to you again until you post a photo of your own work.

 

[MichaelS]

"V

ance Wood,

Do you really care about this discussion or are you just looking to stir the pot so to speak.

Don't really care and just looking to stir the pot.

The tree in the video was restyled not just groomed,

Bullshit. It has the same style as it has had for decades.

if you don't see that and you claim to have watched the video it means one of two things: You don't know anything about the finer points of bonsai or you are so highly evolved above the rest of us mortals you must be a master in your own right.

Only one of those two things? Neither of those is correct. Why would you come up with such a ridiculous statement? I know ''something'' about the finer points of bonsai and I'm not ''evolved'' above anyone. What I think it means is that you don't understand what style is. The tree was styled ages ago.

How about sharing some of your personal work and the trees you are currently working on.

In time I'll do just that. But is it ok with you that I make comments without showing my own examples every time I do?

 

[MichaelS]

Vance Wood

,

I see; you just want to fight with people.

Wow! pretty rich!

 

[eferguson1974]

I get what y'all are saying about shows and trees being at their peak. But for those of us who dont want to show their trees, is there another way to approach them? A different way of maintaining them than growing and pruning for shows? Maybe a healthier way. Idk if its doable, but Id rather have mine look decent for most of the time than perfect once a year for a show. Without winter I think it may be possible, after the trunks are done being chopped and the structure/shape is there. It would be a matter of pruning and a bit of wire once in a while, or am I crazy (crazier than usual, Im always crazy). Maybe not, I have lots to learn. At least I love learning everyday and theres plenty to learn about bonsai. I doubt I will ever want to show my trees even if they get good enough. I do bonsai for me, to look at and learn from. I dont mind them not being show winners. So do I need to treat them differant? After they get nice, that is..

 

[Adair M]

I get what y'all are saying about shows and trees being at their peak. But for those of us who dont want to show their trees, is there another way to approach them? A different way of maintaining them than growing and pruning for shows? Maybe a healthier way. Idk if its doable, but Id rather have mine look decent for most of the time than perfect once a year for a show. Without winter I think it may be possible, after the trunks are done being chopped and the structure/shape is there. It would be a matter of pruning and a bit of wire once in a while, or am I crazy (crazier than usual, Im always crazy). Maybe not, I have lots to learn. At least I love learning everyday and theres plenty to learn about bonsai. I doubt I will ever want to show my trees even if they get good enough. I do bonsai for me, to look at and learn from. I dont mind them not being show winners. So do I need to treat them differant? After they get nice, that is..

Once a tree gets into refinement, and is balanced, it can remain somewhat stable. It depends upon the species.

A Kishu shimpaku fully refined might only need a light thinning every summer to keep its shape. It would probably need to have the wire removed and replaced, in conjunction with a cutback, every 4 or 5 years.

A trident or elm, require multiple cutbacks every summer because they grow so fast!

A JBP needs to be decandled every summer, then needles pulled, and excess shoots thinned every fall. Repotting only every 4 or 5 years. Rewiring about every 3 or 4 years.

 

[Adair M]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. When I do this kind of thinning and adjusting to my trees I don't consider it as doing art. The initial selection of the branches on that juniper were already there and remain in the same position. The art is selecting the tree, positioning the tree, selecting growing and arranging the branches to achieve the vision. We call this ''creation'' Bringing an outgrown tree back to it's initial form is maintenance.
Here's the art part for you:

Also, what's the actual point of a video showing 4 days work in time lapse. I mean what is it supposed to show you, teach you?? Come on now, why do you folks get caught up in this hollywood bullshit. These kinds of ''demos'' are a bit of a joke surely! Instead, let's see one branch worked on from all angles in detail over 1 hour and at normal speed. That could be instructive.

This video shows what I call a "first styling" or rough styling. Bjorn's styling was a detail or refinement styling.

Many demos show "first styling". Usually not with as nice material as that white pine!

The work Bjorn did in his video is not as often shown. It is tedious, and time consuming. It requires as much skill and talent as the first styling. If for no other reason, since the tree is being prepped for show, the wire should not be as promenant as the first style video.

There will be a time in the future when that white pine will need the same attention as the Tosho received.

 

[vaibatron]

Sour grapes round here! @Vance Wood don't tire your fingers!

@MichaelS ..."look at me Hollywood shit" lol that's good! Are you pissed Bjorn wouldn't spell it out for you? I'm sure he paid a good penny for his education, but you want it for freeeeee!

But really put up or shut up!

 

[MichaelS]

"

Adair M,

Bjorn's styling was a detail or refinement styling.

I consider styling to be design, The initial idea, the ''making '' of something. None of these apply to Bjorn's vid IMO. I'm not saying it is not skilled. Of course it is. It takes hundreds of hours to learn the technique. But it's bringing down branches that have come up, thinning out growth that is too dense, wiring small branches into the position of the original design.
If you want to call that styling, so be it.

The work Bjorn did in his video is not as often shown

Yes and not shown in this one either

It requires as much skill and talent as the first styling.

This I disagree with. There are many people who can refine ( a walk around any club show will demonstrate that) but those same people may fall flat when it comes to transferring their vision of a tree into raw material. This takes a different aesthetic sensibility along with the ability to plan and hold onto an idea for extended periods to achieve the goal. I know numerous people who have fantastic material because they can afford it. (much better potential than mine) They can refine the crap out of the tree. Wire, pinch and prune to within an inch of it's life. I mean REALLY fine work! Sadly though, they have absolutely no idea how to (what I call) style or design a thing.
And no, I'm not saying Bjorn is like that. I don't really know, but I saw quite a bit of the work he did here in various workshops. Very good quality but very ''standard'' design. The same as every other demonstrator which has been here in the past decade. They are all preaching from the same bible. It's getting a bit boring to tell the truth. I don't even bother doing workshops with any of these Japanese trained guys anymore. I already know what they are going to do/say before I get there.
Maybe we need Walter or someone to come and stir things up a bit. Love him or hate him, at least he ''thinks''.
More than I can say for the robots......Anyway, that's just me.
Another case in point. We recently had a Japanese ''master'' here who did a demonstration for us. The tree was a Stone pine. Quite old, lot's of character, and most branches growing upward. When I saw it I thought, this is really interesting material. It looks like a REAL old pine tree. It just needs someone to bring out the hidden diamond. But no, bring the branches down, fill in this empty space, flatten all the profiles, blah blah blah.
Someone make it stop!

 

[MichaelS]

Sour grapes round here! @Vance Wood don't tire your fingers!

@MichaelS ..."look at me Hollywood shit" lol that's good! Are you pissed Bjorn wouldn't spell it out for you? I'm sure he paid a good penny for his education, but you want it for freeeeee!

But really put up or shut up!

This is so far off the mark I won't even bother.

 

[sorce]

This is so far off the mark I won't even bother.

I understand how you are feeling, and that you are being genuine, not mean, and as patient as possible....

I agree with you on the use of the word.
I thought the same thing when I watched every Bjorn makeover I've seen. Not saying Bjorn doesn't have skills beyond that, after seeing so many trees, how can't you!?

To me....
It is like erasing a child's crayon when they go outside the lines.
Didn't make the first image, didn't color it, just fixing what has gone outside the lines.

Not saying it isn't hard work, I love watching Bjorn, I think it's the hair!
Lol...

But....Dare I say you are a Craftsman!

I know I know....Vance is a Craftsman too...fully!
He just likes arguing even more!
(not really, he just needs more of these side notes than some!)

For the record Michael, you should add more side notes, things to put your true heart into the text, though some folks are bad at the receiving end of this form of communication, it begins with the sending. We must do our part to express correctly, with no room for misreading.

That goes for all.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

In the end, MichaelS, it doesn't matter what you call it. Doing what Bjorn did to the Toshu will be necessary for every refined bonsai.

The purpose of this post was to remind people that trees that have been established do require work to maintain and refresh their styling. They don't just "sit on the bench" and look good all by themselves.

Lol!!!

I'm reminded of the time I rode up on the elevator with Elle MacPherson due the height of her modeling career. She wasn't "made up", just wearing ordinary street clothes, etc. If I hadn't known who she was, I'd have never thought to myself "There's one of the most beautiful women in the world..."

 

[rockm]

I have noticed the folks who criticize "refinement" work, tend not to have much that needs refining. Sounds harsh, but there it is.

There also seems to be a creeping kind of reverse snobbery when it comes to more advanced material. You're somehow not "authentic" if you don't build bonsai from landscape junipers or some other stuff you buy at Home Depot.

There are no "artisans" and "collectors." That's a subtle put-down that's been used for decades. Thinking that re-styling an established bonsai, or keeping a bonsai in a coherent design for 40 years, are somehow just "maintenance" is a way to make yourself feel better.

That 's the same attitude -- in reverse--that many accuse "collectors" of having towards others who don't buy advanced material.

In reality, there are people who enjoy bonsai in different ways and have a variety of different skills. I know that leveraging a two-inch thick 100 year old branch from a 90 degree angle to 45, or pushing movement into an old deciduous tree's branches with extreme pruning, isn't "maintenance." Those two things aren't in the realm of people working less established trees, but they and more than a few other things are typical in working older material.

 

[aml1014]

"



I consider styling to be design, The initial idea, the ''making '' of something. None of these apply to Bjorn's vid IMO. I'm not saying it is not skilled. Of course it is. It takes hundreds of hours to learn the technique. But it's bringing down branches that have come up, thinning out growth that is too dense, wiring small branches into the position of the original design.
If you want to call that styling, so be it.




Yes and not shown in this one either


This I disagree with. There are many people who can refine ( a walk around any club show will demonstrate that) but those same people may fall flat when it comes to transferring their vision of a tree into raw material. This takes a different aesthetic sensibility along with the ability to plan and hold onto an idea for extended periods to achieve the goal. I know numerous people who have fantastic material because they can afford it. (much better potential than mine) They can refine the crap out of the tree. Wire, pinch and prune to within an inch of it's life. I mean REALLY fine work! Sadly though, they have absolutely no idea how to (what I call) style or design a thing.
And no, I'm not saying Bjorn is like that. I don't really know, but I saw quite a bit of the work he did here in various workshops. Very good quality but very ''standard'' design. The same as every other demonstrator which has been here in the past decade. They are all preaching from the same bible. It's getting a bit boring to tell the truth. I don't even bother doing workshops with any of these Japanese trained guys anymore. I already know what they are going to do/say before I get there.
Maybe we need Walter or someone to come and stir things up a bit. Love him or hate him, at least he ''thinks''.
More than I can say for the robots......Anyway, that's just me.
Another case in point. We recently had a Japanese ''master'' here who did a demonstration for us. The tree was a Stone pine. Quite old, lot's of character, and most branches growing upward. When I saw it I thought, this is really interesting material. It looks like a REAL old pine tree. It just needs someone to bring out the hidden diamond. But no, bring the branches down, fill in this empty space, flatten all the profiles, blah blah blah.
Someone make it stop!

In the end, MichaelS, it doesn't matter what you call it. Doing what Bjorn did to the Toshu will be necessary for every refined bonsai.

The purpose of this post was to remind people that trees that have been established do require work to maintain and refresh their styling. They don't just "sit on the bench" and look good all by themselves.

Lol!!!

I'm reminded of the time I rode up on the elevator with Elle MacPherson due the height of her modeling career. She wasn't "made up", just wearing ordinary street clothes, etc. If I hadn't known who she was, I'd have never thought to myself "There's one of the most beautiful women in the world..."

No disrespect towards either of you, I have much respect for many on this forum. But this thread was about the fact that fully refined trees need work to, Adair you know this considering you started the thread. Styling never came into question in the first post.

I have mostly prebonsai, I only have a few trees that are "refined". But I still understand what's going on here. I work with my teacher every week, and every week, those trees are different! We spend around 5 hours each week working on things that need it. Each time I work on any of her trees they look different then prior. The style changes slightly, the feelings the tree emmit, are different.

All in all, bonsai never ends, Otherwise we'd all have tons of giant trees in our gardens!

Aaron

 

[Vance Wood]

I

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. When I do this kind of thinning and adjusting to my trees I don't consider it as doing art. The initial selection of the branches on that juniper were already there and remain in the same position. The art is selecting the tree, positioning the tree, selecting growing and arranging the branches to achieve the vision. We call this ''creation'' Bringing an outgrown tree back to it's initial form is maintenance.
Here's the art part for you:

Also, what's the actual point of a video showing 4 days work in time lapse. I mean what is it supposed to show you, teach you?? Come on now, why do you folks get caught up in this hollywood bullshit. These kinds of ''demos'' are a bit of a joke surely! Instead, let's see one branch worked on from all angles in detail over 1 hour and at normal speed. That could be instructive.

I've thought long and hard about this and your attitude about it. Here is my take. Wben I want a lesson I will look at the instructional videos and learn the finer points of wiring, pruning, and BSing or final design. I have a musical background in Classical Guitar and Lute. Both instruments are very demanding in technique etc. But there is nothing like hearing the instrument being played by a true master. There is a thing called inspiration. Certainly, if your experience is below a certain level understanding some of the things demonstrated in the styling refining video will be lost on you. However to relegate these demos to bullshit and a joke really does nothing more than expose your lack of knowledge. Do you have a clue how much is involved in producing a video of this qualioty??

 

[johng]

There are many people who can refine ( a walk around any club show will demonstrate that) but those same people may fall flat when it comes to transferring their vision of a tree into raw material. This takes a different aesthetic sensibility along with the ability to plan and hold onto an idea for extended periods to achieve the goal. I know numerous people who have fantastic material because they can afford it. (much better potential than mine) They can refine the crap out of the tree. Wire, pinch and prune to within an inch of it's life. I mean REALLY fine work! Sadly though, they have absolutely no idea how to (what I call) style or design a thing.

There is a lot of truth in this statement in my experience!!
Michael...Thanks for your input..I always enjoy reading how your mind works! I seem to have made many similar observations. As you point out many of us lack artistic vision/skill/whatever you want to call it...perhaps that makes it harder to recognize your point. I certainly tend to agree(no judgement in any fashion) but the work on that Needle juniper was 95% technical expertise and 5% artistic.

Once a tree gets into refinement, and is balanced, it can remain somewhat stable.

The purpose of this post was to remind people that trees that have been established do require work to maintain and refresh their styling. They don't just "sit on the bench" and look good all by themselves.

These statements come across as very opposing...Which is it Adair?

In my experience it is always a cycle...you spend a couple years bringing a tree into top condition(potentially for a show or just for your own viewing pleasure) and then it needs to be allowed to recover for a few seasons and then the process begins again... There is no stability in bonsai...just constant change ranging from manipulation (aesthetics) to recovering health and vigor (horticulture).

Regardless, refined trees take significantly longer to maintain (I think that was your point and I agree)...but who has "4 days of intense work" to give to one tree in their hobby collection??? To me this is why refined trees get a bad rep from most hobbyists...yes we would all love to have our benches full of great trees and love seeing them, but it is only professionals, and those with the money to pay professionals, that have the time to maintain a collection of refined trees! As it has been often stated by many...for most of us it is about the journey! Of course there are exceptions but for most of us time and money are the factors that limit maintaining a collection of primarily refined trees. For others it is the recognition of particular personal pleasures that defines their journey in bonsai.