Bonsai worthy?

[Mellow Mullet]

Sorry. Going to proove you wrong here. I for one rather have Smoke's experience on here than your current uncalled-for ad hominem attacks, regardless of whichever way things are supposed to be spelled. He shows trees and how he gets there, and gives people to the point input on why certain things should or should not be done. I have not seen anything remotely near his quality of trees psted by you.

Me, too. While I found this thread entertaining, the title of the post did ask if the tree was "bonsai worthy" and Al, and others, had the balls to say no. I for one enjoy his candor and no nonsense advice, and he has proof that his advice is sound. Even after the OP said that he realized it wasn't good material and was just gonna grow it for the flowers, there was still argument from others that it was. That is a step in the evolution of the bonsai artist, realizing that some of what you thought was gonna be great is actually not even gonna be so-so and would be better off just planted in the yard.

So Al if you find yourself in Mobile, the beer's on me. Oh, and I realize that I just made up a contraction, just in case the grammar police are patrolling.

 

[Djtommy]

Me, too. While I found this thread entertaining, the title of the post did ask if the tree was "bonsai worthy" and Al, and others, had the balls to say no. I for one enjoy his candor and no nonsense advice, and he has proof that his advice is sound. Even after the OP said that he realized it wasn't good material and was just gonna grow it for the flowers, there was still argument from others that it was. That is a step in the evolution of the bonsai artist, realizing that some of what you thought was gonna be great is actually not even gonna be so-so and would be better off just planted in the yard.

So Al if you find yourself in Mobile, the beer's on me. Oh, and I realize that I just made up a contraction, just in case the grammar police are patrolling.

In all correctness, I don’t think Al has given his thoughts on the tree from the op.

 

[Potawatomi13]

"Frank Corrigan: That is my excuse for working with species considered unsuitable or problematic. My latest camellia is in the ground thickening as we speak. It will be a larger " Bonsai" some day! Current trunk is 2 inch and it stretches 30'' high. prefers morning sun, shady afternoons, and lots of fertiliser. Also in the background are Asian Pear, and Wisteria to name a few."

Bravo! Spoken with honesty and humility sir.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

In all correctness, I don’t think Al has given his thoughts on the tree from the op.

I think contextually, he did. Literally, no.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Hear is my camellia, it is a contorted variety, I am currently trying to ground layer it as the roots looked a lot like the ones in the OP. Roots like these are common on camellias grown for the nursery trade, especially in the larger plants. Training them is a lot like azaleas, but they are not as temperamental.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/contorted-camelia.21738/

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Hear is my camellia, it is a contorted variety, I am currently trying to ground layer it as the roots looked a lot like the ones in the OP. Roots like these are common on camellias grown for the nursery trade, especially in the larger plants. Training them is a lot like azaleas, but they are not as temperamental.

I think the OP's tree was probably two cuttings that just got tangled up in the propagation tray. I have eight camellias in my landscape, of three different cultivars. They are in complete shade 11 months out of the year, with the only exception being about a month in June when they get a little sun - and proceed to get leaf scorch on hot days if I don't protect them. They have amazing blooms... but I can't even guess how long they would have to grow in the ground to get 2" trunk caliper. Certainly 10+ years.

 

[Cajunrider]

I think the OP's tree was probably two cuttings that just got tangled up in the propagation tray. I have eight camellias in my landscape, of three different cultivars. They are in complete shade 11 months out of the year, with the only exception being about a month in June when they get a little sun - and proceed to get leaf scorch on hot days if I don't protect them. They have amazing blooms... but I can't even guess how long they would have to grow in the ground to get 2" trunk caliper. Certainly 10+ years.

2" caliper is about 8 years in Louisiana with a 1/2" caliper nursery pot start for me. I planted them in my previous house that I sold.

 

[just.wing.it]

#standw/smoke ....lol!

Al has assisted me in my bonsai journey, more than once....directly and indirectly.
His tactics are fine with me, and entertaining in fact.
Keep up the good work Al!

 

[rockm]

I would truly love to have the opportunity to meet you in person, and I sincerely invite you to look me up if you’re ever in my city. I guarantee you that if you ever had the spine and temerity to speak to me face to face the way you do to people on this forum, you would very shortly find yourself on your ass, counting your teeth as you picked them up from the floor. I’m confident, though, that your cowardly bully ass will continue to hide behind a keyboard and a user name, wanking away as you lord yourself over everyone else. When are you going to realize that the only person who gives a shit about your self-adoring prowess is you?

Ya know, this kind of "ima MESS YOU UP" kind of response says more about you than about the person you're addressing. There's no need for it and it's kind of pointless. If you actually execute your plan if you meet Smoke in person, it's criminal assault and jail time.

Smoke can be irritating and cranky, but if you stop and actually listen, he consistently offers some no bullshit advice. Of course it comes in a sometimes stinky wrapper, but hey, good free advice is good free advice...You don't have to like the wrapper...Just ignore it, like a pile of poop on the sidewalk.

 

[just.wing.it]

Ya know, this kind of "ima MESS YOU UP" kind of response says more about you than about the person you're addressing. There's no need for it and it's kind of pointless. If you actually execute your plan if you meet Smoke in person, it's criminal assault and jail time.

Smoke can be irritating and cranky, but if you stop and actually listen, he consistently offers some no bullshit advice. Of course it comes in a sometimes stinky wrapper, but hey, good free advice is good free advice...You don't have to like the wrapper...Just ignore it, like a pile of poop on the sidewalk.

I agree, except for the piles on the sidewalk....
That shouldn't be ignored....its spreads disease.
Enforce vagrancy laws....so many problems solved.

 

[just.wing.it]

Ya know, this kind of "ima MESS YOU UP" kind of response says more about you than about the person you're addressing. There's no need for it and it's kind of pointless. If you actually execute your plan if you meet Smoke in person, it's criminal assault and jail time.

Smoke can be irritating and cranky, but if you stop and actually listen, he consistently offers some no bullshit advice. Of course it comes in a sometimes stinky wrapper, but hey, good free advice is good free advice...You don't have to like the wrapper...Just ignore it, like a pile of poop on the sidewalk.

I agree, except for the piles on the sidewalk....
That shouldn't be ignored....its spreads disease.
Enforce vagrancy laws....so many problems solved.

 

[Adair M]

I would truly love to have the opportunity to meet you in person, and I sincerely invite you to look me up if you’re ever in my city. I guarantee you that if you ever had the spine and temerity to speak to me face to face the way you do to people on this forum, you would very shortly find yourself on your ass, counting your teeth as you picked them up from the floor. I’m confident, though, that your cowardly bully ass will continue to hide behind a keyboard and a user name, wanking away as you lord yourself over everyone else. When are you going to realize that the only person who gives a shit about your self-adoring prowess is you?

Smoke and I have had our disagreements on this forum, but I will say that I have met him personally, and he, and his late wife, were absolutely charming in person. He did share with me that he likes to come here and “stir the pot”. So, part of his purpose of posting is to ignite a thread.

As for his bonsai, I have not had the opportunity to see any of his bonsai personally. He primarily does trident maple, and he makes them from raw scratch. I have seen lots of pictures of his trees. I’ve seen better ones, but they’ve generally been imported. There really are not that many really good “born in the USA tridents”. Yet. Tridents, and all deciduous really, take a very long time to develop. So, Smoke does very well with tridents.

Now, I’ll have to say this:

It appears to me that California bonsai is broken into two factions: Southern California, and Northern California. The SoCal faction appears to still hang on to the legacy of the US bonsai pioneers, Naka and Oki, et al. The NorCal folk are more influenced by the people who have studied in Japan and have returned. (I know I’m making gross generalizations.). But at any rate, the two factions really don’t get along very well.

Smoke belongs to the SoCal faction. Or so it appears to me. I find it interesting that Smoke was a friend of Ryan Neil back in the day, before he went to Japan. I think Ryan lived in SoCal for a time? Anyway, Smoke has written about sitting next to Ryan at club meetings and teaching Ryan stuff back in the day. Currently, Smoke doesn’t have much good to say about Ryan. I suppose he feels that Ryan “changed factions” now that Ryan considers Kimura his teacher. I dunno.

Now that I’ve gone on too long about this, let me just say there is no one way to do bonsai. Each of us have different goals of what we want bonsai to be. What we want our bonsai to look like. @Cadillactaste like hot messes of roots. I like pines. Smoke likes tridents. @MACH5 likes deciduous. @Mellow Mullet likes azalea. @Dav4 likes dropped branches. @Vance Wood likes Mugo. We all started as beginners, no one is born a bonsai master. We all have tried using poor material that we didn’t know was poor material. And we’ve learned from our mistakes. All we’re trying to do is share the knowledge to save others some time on the learning curve.

 

[Cajunrider]

Smoke and I have had our disagreements on this forum, but I will say that I have met him personally, and he, and his late wife, were absolutely charming in person. He did share with me that he likes to come here and “stir the pot”. So, part of his purpose of posting is to ignite a thread.

As for his bonsai, I have not had the opportunity to see any of his bonsai personally. He primarily does trident maple, and he makes them from raw scratch. I have seen lots of pictures of his trees. I’ve seen better ones, but they’ve generally been imported. There really are not that many really good “born in the USA tridents”. Yet. Tridents, and all deciduous really, take a very long time to develop. So, Smoke does very well with tridents.

Now, I’ll have to say this:

It appears to me that California bonsai is broken into two factions: Southern California, and Northern California. The SoCal faction appears to still hang on to the legacy of the US bonsai pioneers, Naka and Oki, et al. The NorCal folk are more influenced by the people who have studied in Japan and have returned. (I know I’m making gross generalizations.). But at any rate, the two factions really don’t get along very well.

Smoke belongs to the SoCal faction. Or so it appears to me. I find it interesting that Smoke was a friend of Ryan Neil back in the day, before he went to Japan. I think Ryan lived in SoCal for a time? Anyway, Smoke has written about sitting next to Ryan at club meetings and teaching Ryan stuff back in the day. Currently, Smoke doesn’t have much good to say about Ryan. I suppose he feels that Ryan “changed factions” now that Ryan considers Kimura his teacher. I dunno.

Now that I’ve gone on too long about this, let me just say there is no one way to do bonsai. Each of us have different goals of what we want bonsai to be. What we want our bonsai to look like. @Cadillactaste like hot messes of roots. I like pines. Smoke likes tridents. @MACH5 likes deciduous. @Mellow Mullet likes azalea. @Dav4 likes dropped branches. @Vance Wood likes Mugo. We all started as beginners, no one is born a bonsai master. We all have tried using poor material that we didn’t know was poor material. And we’ve learned from our mistakes. All we’re trying to do is share the knowledge to save others some time on the learning curve.

I haven't been in bonsai long enough to belong to any faction. However, it think it would be uber cool if there is a SouthEastern US faction. Perhaps then I'd be emboldened to throw Bald Cypress sticks at people. Of course they'd be dead sticks cuz I'm keeping all the live ones LOL.

 

[Adair M]

My only mention of the “factions” is it may help explain some of Smoke’s attitude.

I will say that the West Coast has far better bonsai than those of us on the East Coast. They also have easier access to the native mountain junipers and pines, and a climate to grow them.

They don’t have the access to bald cypress (and related) that we have, nor is their climate friendly to azalea.

Now, Louisiana is relatively close to Memphis, which is where Brussel’s is. You have access to some pretty amazing stock at Brussel’s. And, like you say, there’s bald cypress all around you.

One of the keys to success at bonsai is to grow trees that are suitable for your climate. Of course native trees would be, but trees from around the world, if from a similiar climate, would work, too.

 

[Cajunrider]

My only mention of the “factions” is it may help explain some of Smoke’s attitude.

I will say that the West Coast has far better bonsai than those of us on the East Coast. They also have easier access to the native mountain junipers and pines, and a climate to grow them.

They don’t have the access to bald cypress (and related) that we have, nor is their climate friendly to azalea.

Now, Louisiana is relatively close to Memphis, which is where Brussel’s is. You have access to some pretty amazing stock at Brussel’s. And, like you say, there’s bald cypress all around you.

One of the keys to success at bonsai is to grow trees that are suitable for your climate. Of course native trees would be, but trees from around the world, if from a similiar climate, would work, too.

It is 5 hr 15 minutes from my door to Brussel's. DAMHIKT

 

[rockm]

I haven't been in bonsai long enough to belong to any faction. However, it think it would be uber cool if there is a SouthEastern US faction. Perhaps then I'd be emboldened to throw Bald Cypress sticks at people. Of course they'd be dead sticks cuz I'm keeping all the live ones LOL.

There is. Started with Vaughn Banting and worked out in many directions, Gary Marchal, Guy Guidry and more than a few others...

 

[rockm]

My only mention of the “factions” is it may help explain some of Smoke’s attitude.

I will say that the West Coast has far better bonsai than those of us on the East Coast. They also have easier access to the native mountain junipers and pines, and a climate to grow them.

They don’t have the access to bald cypress (and related) that we have, nor is their climate friendly to azalea.

Now, Louisiana is relatively close to Memphis, which is where Brussel’s is. You have access to some pretty amazing stock at Brussel’s. And, like you say, there’s bald cypress all around you.

One of the keys to success at bonsai is to grow trees that are suitable for your climate. Of course native trees would be, but trees from around the world, if from a similiar climate, would work, too.

Southeastern and eastern bonsai has far more than Bald cypress that make excellent bonsai an provide a number or reasons not to pine after western conifers. Cedar elm, hackberry sugarberry, etc. This skates past the centuries-old landscape plants (boxwood, azaleas, lilac, etc.). Back in the day, the East coast had Yuji Yoshimura--who created his own "school" Bill Valavanis is one of his students...

 

[Adair M]

Southeastern and eastern bonsai has far more than Bald cypress that make excellent bonsai an provide a number or reasons not to pine after western conifers. Cedar elm, hackberry sugarberry, etc. This skates past the centuries-old landscape plants (boxwood, azaleas, lilac, etc.). Back in the day, the East coast had Yuji Yoshimura--who created his own "school" Bill Valavanis is one of his students...

That’s true. I’m not much of a deciduous kind of guy, and Bill Valavanis is a stone’s throw from Canada. Not exactly the kind of climate I’m familiar with here in Georgia. He probably gets more snow each winter than all the combined snows we’ve ever had in my lifetime here in GA. Heck, he might get that much in a single snowstorm!

@rockm, I don’t know how many of the Western yamadori you’ve seen, but can tell you they’re spectacular. I’ve seen some nice bald cypress, but man oh man, those western junipers can knock your socks off! And I’m really not a juniper kind of guy!

 

[0soyoung]

There is. Started with Vaughn Banting and worked out in many directions, Gary Marchal, Guy Guidry and more than a few others...

There ya go. Before Vaughn, everybody knew that bald cypress was not bonsai worthy.

 

[rockm]

That’s true. I’m not much of a deciduous kind of guy, and Bill Valavanis is a stone’s throw from Canada. Not exactly the kind of climate I’m familiar with here in Georgia. He probably gets more snow each winter than all the combined snows we’ve ever had in my lifetime here in GA. Heck, he might get that much in a single snowstorm!

@rockm, I don’t know how many of the Western yamadori you’ve seen, but can tell you they’re spectacular. I’ve seen some nice bald cypress, but man oh man, those western junipers can knock your socks off! And I’m really not a juniper kind of guy!

I've seen plenty in the wild. Used to live in Arizona. Thing is, although those yamadori are spectacular, they're just not part of my everyday life. I can take them or leave them. Aspiring to own one of those old monsters here in the humid, soggy east is silly. They die here. They can't take the summer humidity. All that deadwood molds and rots, just like the roots beneath it.

Those species, unfortunately, have sucked up all the O2 when it comes to other notable and very useable native material. That's good sure, but there's a big downside to that.

There is so much MORE to native species than just a dozen kinds of western conifers. . The progress with S.E. natives made widely back in the 1990's early 00's like cedar elm, hackberry, and others has stalled. Collectors like Vito Megna and Bill Cody who back in the day dug out pretty awesome cedar elm, oak and other species has been forgotten or discounted in favor of big ol ponderosa and juniper. There were also collectors up North in Canada and New York pulling rugged extremely old arborvitae out of the Niagara escarpment. While every likes old Ponderosa, juniper, etc, they're also not representative of anything east of the Rockies. Heck, Zach Smith is pulling out some interesting, excellent AFFORDABLE AND HARDY species down in La. and Texas.

I hope one of the "names" in the PNW takes note of the oaks and other western deciduous stuff Alvaro is pulling from the high desert. Those trees have similar character, they just don't have needles and bendy branches that can be wired into place...;-)