Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

[hemmy]

Anyone have comments or tips on improving the number of radial roots from the base in that first 2-3 years after the seedling cutting method (other than the 2nd cutting during first year)? I culled 1 yr olds with only 1 - 2 large roots, but on the ones with only 3 sided roots I'm wondering if knicking or wounding the cambium and dusting with rooting hormone could get some roots to push? On my 2yr olds it seems like the roots were better than I remembered so I'm also wondering if small feeder roots can emerge and develop at the base during the 2nd and 3rd years?

 

[Shibui]

New roots can grow if the tree decides it needs some more.
Hard root pruning is the best way I have found to get pines to grow new roots but occasionally there is one that will only grow new roots where the existing roots are pruned.
Wounding cambium and hormone may stimulate some extra roots but if existing roots are strong the tree may just heal over the cuts instead of making new roots.

 

[River's Edge]

Anyone have comments or tips on improving the number of radial roots from the base in that first 2-3 years after the seedling cutting method (other than the 2nd cutting during first year)? I culled 1 yr olds with only 1 - 2 large roots, but on the ones with only 3 sided roots I'm wondering if knicking or wounding the cambium and dusting with rooting hormone could get some roots to push? On my 2yr olds it seems like the roots were better than I remembered so I'm also wondering if small feeder roots can emerge and develop at the base during the 2nd and 3rd years?

I have found that JBP produce good nebari naturally over time if one simply performs regular repots with corrective root work annually for the first three or four years. Trees with a few radial roots, produce more when the downward ones are controlled and wayward ones are removed or shortened.
When dealing with trees that have only two or three in the beginning, shorten those to control their thickness and this also encourages the tree to produce more roots. The second radial cut can often produce too many radial roots with the result of having to remove extra roots as progression continues. Or one ends up with a plate similar to Japanese maples. Personally I consider this effect undesirable for pines. After the first three or four years of annual root work I let the trees grow for three or four years to thicken the nebari. During this time, one can continue development work on the trunk and primary branching.
Typical JBP handled in this way have well established more natural looking nebari and solid foundations for trunk flare, movement and primary branching by seven or eight years of age.

 

[rollwithak]

I have found that JBP produce good nebari naturally over time if one simply performs regular repots with corrective root work annually for the first three or four years. Trees with a few radial roots, produce more when the downward ones are controlled and wayward ones are removed or shortened.
When dealing with trees that have only two or three in the beginning, shorten those to control their thickness and this also encourages the tree to produce more roots. The second radial cut can often produce too many radial roots with the result of having to remove extra roots as progression continues. Or one ends up with a plate similar to Japanese maples. Personally I consider this effect undesirable for pines. After the first three or four years of annual root work I let the trees grow for three or four years to thicken the nebari. During this time, one can continue development work on the trunk and primary branching.
Typical JBP handled in this way have well established more natural looking nebari and solid foundations for trunk flare, movement and primary branching by seven or eight years of age.

Frank,

Thanks for the info. What pots/container or method are you using at each of these stages?

 

[River's Edge]

Frank,

Thanks for the info. What pots/container or method are you using at each of these stages?

Keep in mind that container selection is affected by climate and nursery practices. I use the following progression of containers. And I deliberately chose as slower method for development to focus on nebari, movement and lower branches in the beginning stages rather than focus on a thick trunk first.
1.Seeds in Anderson flat for germination.
2. A two inch pot for stem cutting placement. sand in centre, small particle pumice, lava, akadama, below and surrounding.
3. An eight inch colander for seedling after first year. ( usually the following spring after germination the year before.)
4. Colander placed in grow bed for years 2, 3, 4, This allows for rotation, easier wiring for movement, root improvement and rootball development.
5. Years 4-8 cedar wood grow boxes medium particle mix as above with granite added. ( granite added for weight as grow out involves lots of extension height and wind on my site. ( focus on sacrifice leaders, branches and primary branch selection, cut back for back budding as required ) not referring to decandling)
6.Years 8 plus depends on plan for the individual tree, grow out further I place in an Anderson flat for the remaining time to grow out! If the tree will be a smaller style and I wish to begin more refined development than a medium size training pot and on to the bench.

PS: the overlap in timing is to account for individual variance in growth pattern!

 

[River's Edge]

Just for reference, I am currently re potting my seven year old JBP from their grow boxes to Anderson Flats for further development. I have completed thirty one and have fifty three to go! At the current stage they have average trunk width of 2 1/4 inch above basal flare, Last spring the apical leader was reduced to strengthen the lower growth on the trunk and promote back budding on the trunk. The current work is to set them up for the next stage of development. The main task is to remove any downward developing roots, perform nebari correction where needed, floating or crossing roots etc. The photos will give you an idea of the amount of foliage and pattern of development I prefer. The expectation is that at the ten year mark these trees will have 3 inch trunks, decent nebari and movement with primary branching and sufficient foliage near the trunk to begin secondary branching and compaction towards refinement.
Observations at this point.
1. matt of roots in the bottom is the main drainage issue to correct.
2. lots of room for continued fibrous root growth.
3. very few downward roots to deal with after root matt removed.
4. tree in need of nebari improvement, correction after four years in the grow boxes.
5. wood beginning to rot, replacement advisable.
6. next container is wider but not much deeper, just enough to continue covering nebari during development and provide a good depth for root ball.
The tree's vary in height but typically have numerous lower branches and buds on the trunks for future development or sacrifice branches as desired!
This example has twenty plus branches although it is only eighteen inches high overall.
Photos should be in this order, root matt, downward roots, nebari for correction, nebari corrected, overall two sides.

 

[BuckeyeOne]

An eight inch colander for seedling after first year. ( usually the following spring after germination the year before.)

I known your growing season is longer than mine. I'm at 177 days, so after the first year they are barely filling a pint grow bag. They where taproot cut at the end of last spring and planted as you do in a sand well surrounded by a bonsai mix.
Should I just up pot to a small pond basket now?

 

[River's Edge]

I known your growing season is longer than mine. I'm at 177 days, so after the first year they are barely filling a pint grow bag. They where taproot cut at the end of last spring and planted as you do in a sand well surrounded by a bonsai mix.
Should I just up pot to a small pond basket now?

The main reasons for a change early are as follows:
Continue to spread roots and promote radial development.
Discourage downward growth of stronger roots.
Place in a container that allows for proper root ball form.
This requires more frequent root work and sufficient space for spread not necessarily a real large change of container.
So flatter and wider helps but does not to be overly large!
Small pond basket could be a good choice depending on the current size of your seedlings.

 

[Shibui]

Potted up some more pine seedling cuttings today - End of summer here.



These were all taken form the above ground parts of JBP seedlings. 17 rooted from 19 cuttings so pretty good success rate. Some with really good lateral roots too.
It was previously believed that success depends on cutting seedlings at the line between purple and white on the root.
I believe this example should show that 'where, is not critical when taking cuttings from juvenile pines. Cutting higher gives me successful cuttings and the lower part back buds and continues to grow - 2 for the price of 1!

 

[markyscott]

This one is looking good. Over the winter, I bent the exposed roots over 90 degrees. I want to build a tight ball of roots and a semi-cascade. Today I added a couple of guy wires to tighten it up a little more. Before and after.

 

[markyscott]

Here’s a super easy way to protect the bark from a guy wire in cases where you are working on an unwired branch. I use irrigation tubing and an appropriate gauge copper wire. Irrigation tubing is much thicker walled than aquarium tubing. For really heavy branches, I split a garden hose and use that. In this case, the irrigation tubing is enough. I used 18 gauge wire.

 

[markyscott]

Cut two lengths of tubing. They should be long enough to wrap 1/2 way around the branches at a minimum.

 

[markyscott]

For the hose on the side you’ll be tightening from, cut a slice from the outside bend.

 

[markyscott]

Feed the copper wire through the uncut piece an center it. Then wrap I around either the branch your going to bend or the anchor. Whichever side is HARDER to reach.

 

[markyscott]

Feed the wires on opposite sides of the other branch, insert the wires from each side and pull the ends through the slice you cut off. Like this.

 

[markyscott]

Now you can bend the branch with one hand and tighten the guy with the other. Or, as in my case, you can tighten with a small jack and twist the wire to tighten it. Be sure not to pull the wire when you tighten - easy to do. Here’s what it will look like when you’re done.

 

[Kyleboldy2003]

does anyone sell any of these?

 

[River's Edge]

does anyone sell any of these?

I assume you are referring to Black Pine seedling cuttings, if that is the case Mark Comstock is a name to check out.
Member on this site. Kingsville Grower

 

[Kyleboldy2003]

I assume you are referring to Black Pine seedling cuttings, if that is the case Mark Comstock is a name to check out.
Member on this site. Kingsville Grower

yes I was talking about Black pine . But actually looking for trees maybe in the 5-10 year range.. Mark does not have any as I frequently get material from him just looking for more thanks

 

[River's Edge]

I have plenty in that age range, however I do not sell internationally. My sales are conducted in person at the nursery!
I am sure there must be plenty of growers in the USA. Two that come to mind are John Muth in Washington State and Jonas Dupuich in California. Mark is very familiar with Jonas and his work. I know several well known members on this site have acquired trees from Jonas as well. John is no longer operating Bonsai Northwest but I am sure he has lots of stock in the ground at his nursery. I believe it is located on Vachon Island, Washington State. My teacher Boon has expanded his nursery with his new location, but I have not been there to judge the availability of younger stock, he had some nicely developing young JBP when he moved to the new location.
Other members can probably give you suggestions closer to your location. I am more familiar with the Pacific North West and California.