Black Pine Seedling Cuttings

[sorce]

after the above, you could also set the colander on top of a slightly bigger pot to let the roots grow down into the pot below. great way to thicken the trunk quicker.

This is a good way to utilize...ahem..the tap root we cut off all the time. Might as well keep sacrifice roots!

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

@markyscott How long are you leaving them in colanders between repots?

I have some that will be starting their 3rd season in the same soil in colanders. They spent their first two years in small pots. they were in a single colander in year 3 and some Roots started to poke out by end of season. The following season I didn’t repot but put them into a larger colander, so they are now in double colanders. Roots are coming through the bottom of the second colander after last season. I have no yellowing needles or signs that drainage is poor(Akadama, pumice, lava). I think I could get away with another season in this soil, but admittedly am on the fence if I should repot As I don’t want to have problems late season.

interested to hear your experience?

Hi NY

I think the whole point with colarnders is that you can leave them undisturbed for a longer period of time without having to repot. So in a colander and with a pine, you should be able to let them go three years no problem. I’ve not used a double colander before, so I don’t have personal experience with that. But so far, I’m pretty satisfied with how the growth. If I would have let them go, they would have been 6’ tall by now. I’m counting on the sacrifice branches to give me the thickness I need. I’m working on replacing the existing ones at the moment, in order to avoid big wounds in the future.

- S

 

[markyscott]

Fall work. Bud selection plus cutbacks. Wired the apex with #8 and bent it toward the front.



Getting the primary structure in place and working the branches back toward the trunk.

S

 

[SeanS]

@markyscott I just finished rereading your posts about the work with Jonas. You did the heavy bending in January. I know you have a very mild winter and have an 11,5 month summer. For us in regular 4 season regions, would that heavy bending work be done in spring? I have an exposed root pine that also needs some bending of the main trunk, want to know when I should carry out that operation?

 

[leatherback]

@markyscott I just finished rereading your posts about the work with Jonas. You did the heavy bending in January. I know you have a very mild winter and have an 11,5 month summer. For us in regular 4 season regions, would that heavy bending work be done in spring? I have an exposed root pine that also needs some bending of the main trunk, want to know when I should carry out that operation?

johannesburg also does not get winter worth mentioning I would say.

I prefer big bends in fall, as there are months of high humidity, cool temps AND the bark sits tighter on the trunk (Cambium is less active) so less slippage.

 

[markyscott]

@markyscott I just finished rereading your posts about the work with Jonas. You did the heavy bending in January. I know you have a very mild winter and have an 11,5 month summer. For us in regular 4 season regions, would that heavy bending work be done in spring? I have an exposed root pine that also needs some bending of the main trunk, want to know when I should carry out that operation?

Hi Sean. I consider large bends “winter work”. That’s when the cambium is bound most tightly to the bark and when the tree in nature (due to snow load) would typically get bent in such a way. Early spring is probably OK, but I wouldn’t recommend waiting too long. Once the tree get’s in active growth, there’s a lot of sap flow and the cambium is easily detached. At that point, I think it’s too late. As leatherback mentioned, late fall is a good time also.

 

[Millard B.]

Scott, I've read a bunch of your posts concerning JBPs, my knowledge is dwarfed by my ignorance. Been a member of WPB Fl Bonsai Club since 1979, killed a lot of trees!
I planted a Pinus elliottii with a Pinus clausa Witches broom next to my house. In 2019 I bought 100 JBPs in 4" bulb pans to use for root stock. I did side veneer grafts from Dec to June- I had 2% success rate rather than 98% failure! The two grafts are exploding with growth, I cut off the JBP apex last summer, all growth is on the Witches Broom. The full size length of the needles is .75" to 1.25". I'm about to re-pot both into stoneware pots and do the first branch placement and wiring this week- counted 27 potential branches in a 8" tree!
Do you know of a source of southern grown JBPs in jiffy pots, the 100 JBPs were from Oregon and are still on Oregon time. The trunks are 1/2" + , too big for the scions. I'm driving to visit a buddy w of Ft. Worth in Azle soon.
Thanks, Millard
balfreymill@yahoo.com

 

[SeanS]

johannesburg also does not get winter worth mentioning I would say.

I prefer big bends in fall, as there are months of high humidity, cool temps AND the bark sits tighter on the trunk (Cambium is less active) so less slippage.

Hi Sean. I consider large bends “winter work”. That’s when the cambium is bound most tightly to the bark and when the tree in nature (due to snow load) would typically get bent in such a way. Early spring is probably OK, but I wouldn’t recommend waiting too long. Once the tree get’s in active growth, there’s a lot of sap flow and the cambium is easily detached. At that point, I think it’s too late. As leatherback mentioned, late fall is a good time also.

Thanks @leatherback and @markyscott.
I should have noticed you had replaced your regular shiners with an urbok for that single chilly day in Jan, signaling the arrival and sudden departure of your winter
I’ll do my bending in June/July down here then, thanks!

 

[markyscott]

Scott, I've read a bunch of your posts concerning JBPs, my knowledge is dwarfed by my ignorance. Been a member of WPB Fl Bonsai Club since 1979, killed a lot of trees!
I planted a Pinus elliottii with a Pinus clausa Witches broom next to my house. In 2019 I bought 100 JBPs in 4" bulb pans to use for root stock. I did side veneer grafts from Dec to June- I had 2% success rate rather than 98% failure! The two grafts are exploding with growth, I cut off the JBP apex last summer, all growth is on the Witches Broom. The full size length of the needles is .75" to 1.25". I'm about to re-pot both into stoneware pots and do the first branch placement and wiring this week- counted 27 potential branches in a 8" tree!
Do you know of a source of southern grown JBPs in jiffy pots, the 100 JBPs were from Oregon and are still on Oregon time. The trunks are 1/2" + , too big for the scions. I'm driving to visit a buddy w of Ft. Worth in Azle soon.
Thanks, Millard
balfreymill@yahoo.com

Sorry Millard. I don’t know of a southern source for JBP seedlings - sorry. If you find one, let us know!

- S

 

[markyscott]

Thanks @leatherback and @markyscott.
I should have noticed you had replaced your regular shiners with an urbok for that single chilly day in Jan, signaling the arrival and sudden departure of your winter
I’ll do my bending in June/July down here then, thanks!

It was absolutely freezing that day. I had to put on socks with my sandals.

- S

 

[leatherback]

It was absolutely freezing that day. I had to put on socks with my sandals.

- S

I hate it when that happens!
We usually call that summer.

 

[afelio]

Hello Team,

The information is great and your work is fantastic.
I have a one question. when you do seedling cutting, why don't you immediately use colanders?. I see that you use the colanders when a season has passed at least.

Thanks for your time.
Best Regards

 

[markyscott]

Hello Team,

The information is great and your work is fantastic.
I have a one question. when you do seedling cutting, why don't you immediately use colanders?. I see that you use the colanders when a season has passed at least.

Thanks for your time.
Best Regards

There area couple of reasons. The first one is just for practicality. I performed several hundred seedling cuttings and I knew there was only a small percentage I was going to keep. +90% either died or I gave away or sold. I just put the keepers in the colanders. And I’ve culled that batch down a number of times. What I’m left with are about 10 trees that I think have some potential. The second reason is horticultural. There is a popular belief that trees will grow faster in colanders because of improved “drainage”. I personally believe that this is incorrect. Most of the academic work I’ve read is motivated by trying to avoid encircling roots to decrease cull rates and increase the rate of successful transplants. In fact, most of the research I’ve read (amitidly, none on JBP) suggests growth rates are actually slower in air pots. So my thinking is this. Preventing encircling roots in the first couple of years of growth is kind of irrelevant. After that, I’m just trying to develop a thick, balanced rootball with a good pattern of radial roots. This is exactly what air pots were designed to do. I’m happy with the growth rates that I’ve been getting, so if they are growing a bit slower, it’s not so much that I’ve noticed.

- S

 

[afelio]

There area couple of reasons. The first one is just for practicality. I performed several hundred seedling cuttings and I knew there was only a small percentage I was going to keep. +90% either died or I gave away or sold. I just put the keepers in the colanders. And I’ve culled that batch down a number of times. What I’m left with are about 10 trees that I think have some potential. The second reason is horticultural. There is a popular belief that trees will grow faster in colanders because of improved “drainage”. I personally believe that this is incorrect. Most of the academic work I’ve read is motivated by trying to avoid encircling roots to decrease cull rates and increase the rate of successful transplants. In fact, most of the research I’ve read (amitidly, none on JBP) suggests growth rates are actually slower in air pots. So my thinking is this. Preventing encircling roots in the first couple of years of growth is kind of irrelevant. After that, I’m just trying to develop a thick, balanced rootball with a good pattern of radial roots. This is exactly what air pots were designed to do. I’m happy with the growth rates that I’ve been getting, so if they are growing a bit slower, it’s not so much that I’ve noticed.

- S

Thank you very much Scott.
Leaving aside the external cultivation factors (very important) in the first years of a tree it will normally grow faster in a pot than in a colander. This is because thick roots are reflected in the aerial part. However, this causes problems when working the root ball (look at the typical black pine trees in the garden centre) and over time the colander often compensates more. If you add to this what you say "Preventing encircling roots in the first couple of years of growth is kind of irrelevant", especially if it is executed seedling cutting, I totally agree with you.

Waiting for the seeds to be developed to put it into practice.

Thank you
Best Regards,

 

[markyscott]

Thank you very much Scott.
Leaving aside the external cultivation factors (very important) in the first years of a tree it will normally grow faster in a pot than in a colander. This is because thick roots are reflected in the aerial part. However, this causes problems when working the root ball (look at the typical black pine trees in the garden centre) and over time the colander often compensates more. If you add to this what you say "Preventing encircling roots in the first couple of years of growth is kind of irrelevant", especially if it is executed seedling cutting, I totally agree with you.

Waiting for the seeds to be developed to put it into practice.

Thank you
Best Regards,

If I understand you correctly, I think we’re in agreement. My meaning with that statement was this - letting the roots grow during the first couple of years really helps the growth rate and it’s too early to worry much about encircling roots. You can easily put things back into balance when you repot into the colander.

 

[afelio]

If I understand you correctly, I think we’re in agreement. My meaning with that statement was this - letting the roots grow during the first couple of years really helps the growth rate and it’s too early to worry much about encircling roots. You can easily put things back into balance when you repot into the colander.

Sorry about my English. Yes, I agree with what you say. I was just asking in case "I missed something".

Thanks for your time.
Best Regards,

 

[markyscott]

Sorry about my English. Yes, I agree with what you say. I was just asking in case "I missed something".

Thanks for your time.
Best Regards,

No need to apologize. Your communication skills in English are better than that of many native English speakers! They’re certainly better than mine in any second language.

- S

 

[markyscott]

Here is a ROR pine from the batch of seedlings. As is turns out, this is a red pine, not a black.




This one has turned out great! I really like how the roots have grasped the rock. Time to expose more rock and see what’s underneath.

- S

 

[RobertB]

Can we see some more pines from this initial batch of planting. Using yours as a reference point myself over the years. Thank you much for so much transparency into your proces.

 

[markyscott]

The method, if you recall was to pack the seedling roots around the rock in sphagnum and then bind the roots to the rock with tightly round packing film. The packing film has been on for about 3 years or so now. And the roots have filled the pot. I pulled the tree from the pot, removed the soil and packing film. Then I carefully scraped all the sphagnum from around the roots.