Bjorn’s Single Flush Pine technique explained!

[Adair M]

I like this video and I think he clearly explains timing and technique. However one thing he didn't emphasize very clearly is that this is a refinement / energy balancing technique. This is not necessarily what you would do if you were still in early or mid development and were still developing branch structure or extending branches. I say "not necessarily" because there may be cases where you are refining one part of a tree, while another part of the tree you are still developing.

So yes, @sorce, if you are still developing, using this technique would slow down your development because you are removing energy production and the rate of growth.

The other thing to note is that there are some exceptions to using this technique on all single-flush pines. The pine in this video is a Scots Pine which is considered a short-needle single flush pine. You have to wait a little longer before you pinch/cut candles on long-needle single flush pines like P. parviflora or P. strobus, because otherwise the emerging needles (from the cut/pinched candles) will elongate too much. At least... that is Ryan Neil's advice. I admit I do not have enough experience with some of these pine species since I was not able to keep them in SoCal. I am just now starting to expand my collection with a few white pine species and hope to gain more experience.

My Japanese White Pines get pinched as soon as I can differentiate between the needles and pollen cones at the base of the candle. This occurs once the actual needles can be seen growing out of the base of the sheath at the base of each cluster of needles. I have short needles and short internodes on my JWP (P. parviflora). So, what you are saying about pinching JWP, a “long needled” single flush pine, doesn’t match my experience.

 

[GGB]

I try to pick one guru for each genus (or species if they act very different). I have a bald cypress guy, a single flush pine guy, and a japanese maple guy. I just take their word as gospel and run with it, fortunately if you pick the right person their advice should be just about echoed by everyone. But where would we be if nobody shook it up?

Watching this video makes me wish my pines were farther along. I'm years away from "balancing vigor". lucky dogs

 

[Bonsai Nut]

My Japanese White Pines get pinched as soon as I can differentiate between the needles and pollen cones at the base of the candle. This occurs once the actual needles can be seen growing out of the base of the sheath at the base of each cluster of needles. I have short needles and short internodes on my JWP (P. parviflora). So, what you are saying about pinching JWP, a “long needled” single flush pine, doesn’t match my experience.

Interestingly, when I was talking to the two different nursery owners about white pines this week, I kept asking them about their cultivar root stock. They were curious until I told them that a significant percentage of JWP cultivars on the west coast are grown on JBP root stock, and how it causes big problems if you are developing the tree for bonsai. They didn't even know it was possible

 

[Adair M]

Interestingly, when I was talking to the two different nursery owners about white pines this week, I kept asking them about their cultivar root stock. They were curious until I told them that a significant percentage of JWP cultivars on the west coast are grown on JBP root stock, and how it causes big problems if you are developing the tree for bonsai. They didn't even know it was possible

They didn’t know it was possible to grow JWP grafted onto JBP stock? Is that what you’re saying?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

They didn’t know it was possible to grow JWP grafted onto JBP stock? Is that what you’re saying?

Yes. They both at first thought I was kidding and asked me to repeat what I had said. These were both commercial growers who grew a lot of P. strobus and P. parviflora cultivars, though their primary market is landscape. They grew P. thunbergii cultivars as well. They are pretty sophisticated - one of them is growing out P. sylvestris witches' broom scions that have been collected from numerous locations/trees. But for whatever reason they had not heard of JWP on JBP roots. I thought it was general knowledge / practice.

 

[Mayank]

If there’s no bud, the tree stops feeding that twig (branch). Sometimes a weak twig which has needles just doesn’t form a bud. No bud, no growth! The twig will eventually die. I suppose there’s a hormone that live buds create that tell the tree to feed that twig. No bud, no hormone, no food!

Understood! I have one more question. And this relates to spruces also as well as balsam fir. If you have an extremely healthy specimen in spring with a whole bunch of buds that will probably come out in a few weeks and you cut off every single bud over the entire tree what happens next? It's the whole tree liable to die? (This would only apply if the tree was in an perfectly refined and finished state and you did not want it to lose that shape; I don't have any like that but I was just curious.)

 

[Adair M]

Understood! I have one more question. And this relates to spruces also as well as balsam fir. If you have an extremely healthy specimen in spring with a whole bunch of buds that will probably come out in a few weeks and you cut off every single bud over the entire tree what happens next? It's the whole tree liable to die? (This would only apply if the tree was in an perfectly refined and finished state and you did not want it to lose that shape; I don't have any like that but I was just curious.)

I don’t have any experience with balsam fir, and only limited experience with spruce. But, my gut feeling is not to remove all the buds. On spruce, it’s safe to cut back to a bud, but always leave a bud there.

JBP, (and JRP) have the ability recover from “bud removal” (decandling). There are dormant buds at each node that can activate when the spring growth is removed.

 

[Adair M]

Yes. They both at first thought I was kidding and asked me to repeat what I had said. These were both commercial growers who grew a lot of P. strobus and P. parviflora cultivars, though their primary market is landscape. They grew P. thunbergii cultivars as well. They are pretty sophisticated - one of them is growing out P. sylvestris witches' broom scions that have been collected from numerous locations/trees. But for whatever reason they had not heard of JWP on JBP roots. I thought it was general knowledge / practice.

Ah, landscape nurseries. That a different mindset. Their goals for growing trees are totally different than our goals for bonsai.

Incidently, I have found some “Master Gardeners” have a difficult time doing bonsai as well.

 

[Adair M]

I too, have the "Holy Trinity" in mind , noting differences in each's approach.

Seeking to combine like Voltron...

Leg leg arm head....

And we have better.

Let me know what you discover!

It was Ryan voice in my head made me feel like too much energy was removed.

Sorce

25% of the posts on this thread are from you.

Many of the posts on this thread are from others complaining about... you.

You’re upset because I posted a reply with “Uh, Sorce...”. I did that because you tend to post like the village idiot. You rant and rave, spew out in streams of consciousness, drivel on about who knows what...

Then I ask you, politely, to stay out of my threads.

You don’t. You go on as normal, claiming I’m persecuting you.

For the last time, I’m going to be nice and ask you not to interact with me. At all.

Please do not post in my threads.
Please do not make a reply to my my posts.
Please do not “like” or react to my posts.

You can go on doing whatever you like with everyone else. Just not with me.

Please.

ok, I’ll make one exception. You are allowed one reply. You can reply “Ok, got it”, or you can write out exactly why you cannot comply with my request. Just so we all know.

 

[Vance Wood]

Ah, landscape nurseries. That a different mindset. Their goals for growing trees are totally different than our goals for bonsai.

Incidently, I have found some “Master Gardeners” have a difficult time doing bonsai as well.

The qualifications for the desigation as a Master Gardner are not very much more than the ability to pay the fee for the class to aquire certification and the class is abouit as usewful as a door knob on a lamp post.

 

[Vance Wood]

The major problem I have with Bjorn's post is that it does not address encouraging back budding and seems to be more geared toward Five Needle Pines. Back budding is an issue with Five needle PInes but that is not what this post seemed to start out as. With a single flush Pine (the two needle variety) the important factor is to encourage back budding and the best way to do that is to allow the new growth to develop a head of steam and then interupt it, forcing that energy with nothing to do but go somewhere else; aka back bud somewhere down the branch. Both Mugos and Scotts Pines will back bud profusely doing it this way.

 

[larlamonde]

In “your opinion”, and “your experience”? Right? I don’t want to be accused of misinterpreting your post.

Well, Bjorn’s method is exactly what I do, and have done with my JWP.

Here are a few of my JWP:

View attachment 298136

View attachment 298137

View attachment 298138

View attachment 298140

View attachment 298141


Now, you show me your trees that you do your way since you have so much experience.

Adair nice collection!

 

[Mayank]

... a significant percentage of JWP cultivars on the west coast are grown on JBP root stock, and how it causes big problems if you are developing the tree for bonsai.

What big problems does this cause! An ugly graft union that is hard to disguise? I'm thinking of acquiring a jwp in the near future so I was just curious.

 

[Mayank]

The major problem I have with Bjorn's post is that it does not address encouraging back budding and seems to be more geared toward Five Needle Pines. Back budding is an issue with Five needle PInes but that is not what this post seemed to start out as. With a single flush Pine (the two needle variety) the important factor is to encourage back budding and the best way to do that is to allow the new growth to develop a head of steam and then interupt it, forcing that energy with nothing to do but go somewhere else; aka back bud somewhere down the branch. Both Mugos and Scotts Pines will back bud profusely doing it this way.

@Vance Wood are Scotch pines two Needle single flush? Jwp are five needle right?do you have a thread where you've described your technique in greater detail? I would like to check it out. I'm so bummed about the Coronavirus because I was hoping that my son and I could have come to you and spent some time with you with our trees as we'd discussed last year!!!

 

[JudyB]

What big problems does this cause! An ugly graft union that is hard to disguise? I'm thinking of acquiring a jwp in the near future so I was just curious.

Yes that is exactly the issue, some are done much better than others.

 

[Adair M]

The major problem I have with Bjorn's post is that it does not address encouraging back budding and seems to be more geared toward Five Needle Pines. Back budding is an issue with Five needle PInes but that is not what this post seemed to start out as. With a single flush Pine (the two needle variety) the important factor is to encourage back budding and the best way to do that is to allow the new growth to develop a head of steam and then interupt it, forcing that energy with nothing to do but go somewhere else; aka back bud somewhere down the branch. Both Mugos and Scotts Pines will back bud profusely doing it this way.

But does that tree need backbudding? It appears to me to be full, with plenty of foliage to work with. He did, in fact, open it up to allow more sunlight to pierce the canopy, which will encourage back budding. But he did not demonstrate that, or really discuss it, other than say he did it.

Again, it appears to me that Bjorn’s intent with this video was to focus on how to manage the spring growth, and maintain balance.

You, and some others, appear to want him to make another video on “development” rather than “maintenance”.

 

[Maloghurst]

Leg leg arm head....

Bobby digital.

 

[Lazylightningny]

The major problem I have with Bjorn's post is that it does not address encouraging back budding and seems to be more geared toward Five Needle Pines. Back budding is an issue with Five needle PInes but that is not what this post seemed to start out as. With a single flush Pine (the two needle variety) the important factor is to encourage back budding and the best way to do that is to allow the new growth to develop a head of steam and then interupt it, forcing that energy with nothing to do but go somewhere else; aka back bud somewhere down the branch. Both Mugos and Scotts Pines will back bud profusely doing it this way.

I understand your point Vance, but I believe this was just meant to be a short video on a very specific subject.

 

[Adair M]

Yes that is exactly the issue, some are done much better than others.

Agreed. And you never know in advance how the two, the stock and scion, are going to develop in the long run.

The way the Japanese do it is by starting thousands of them, plant them in the fields, and cull the ones that don’t look so good, keeping
the ones grow together well.

Culling, as a practice, doesn’t seem to be used here as much. Maybe in the big commercial nurseries, I don’t know.

A common problem is must JWP cultivars, especially the ones with the better foliage are “dwarf” varieties which are slow growing. So, to push growth, they’re given tons of fertilizer to speed their growth. And an unfortunate side effect is if they’re on JBP stock, that stock can fatten up much faster than the JWP portion, and just look out of proportion.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

You, and some others, appear to want him to make another video on “development” rather than “maintenance”.

Yes, that's why I'm watching videos in the first place. The maintenance is all in the books and articles, but getting to that point seems to be a well kept secret. Or at least a greyish area.
I know Mirai is doing a beginner series, and they're doing it pretty well. But they're at a point where basic 'keeping it alive' is still a concern, and I get it, that's where people start. Bjorn makes creative jumps, but almost all of his work is on very well established trees. And he's rocking that!

I myself am at a point where all of my trees are either seedlings, or 'in betweens' (or trash, depending on who you ask). And developmental videos are something I'm hoping for. The Peter Warren video on page 2 was exactly what I needed. But if Bjorn covers it a second time, I'd be glad to watch it.