leatherback
The Treedeemer
I also still have PP emergng from the substrate. Not all is lost yet
About Princess Persimmon
- Thread starter NaoTK
- Start date
ragenmoan
Sapling
Will my Fuyu and Hachiya persimmon trees pollinate my Princess Persimmon bonsai? Trying to increase fruiting. Getting decent success surrounding the male trees with females but havent tried growing them under the Fuyu trees because I think they'd shade the PP too much.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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I don’t know about fuyu or hachiya in particular (i have no experience with them), but know that for the sake of fruiting there is broad compatability within Diospyros. For example, both Diospyros virginiana and Diospyros kaki will increase fruit production of nearby Diospyros rhombifolia.
HOWEVER, this will often produce fruit without seed, and seedless fruit is often mis-shaped, dries/falls early, and is (often) unlikely to make it until February (Kokufu timing). It’s best to use a male diospyros rhombifolia in order to increase your chances of getting consistent fruit sizes. This may sound insignifcant to people reading this, but when you have a leafless tree infront of you and your fruit are all random weird shapes, yes it’s still nice but it is also a bit of a disappointment.
(Side note: some female cultivars will always produce seedless fruit, and simply cannot produce seed even when pollinated by a male diospyros rhombifolia, but this is rare)
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
Sorry if it's been covered, but I have a PP that I bought advertised as a female over 3 years ago.
It has not even once flowered, so I don't even have male flowers to confirm I was duped.
The tree is small, but quite old, so it should definitely be mature enough to flower.
Anyone ever encounter this?
It has not even once flowered, so I don't even have male flowers to confirm I was duped.
The tree is small, but quite old, so it should definitely be mature enough to flower.
Anyone ever encounter this?
You are in Japan? You can find excellent P.P. at any of the major shows, so I doubt you were duped. Anyways...
Let your tree grow vigorously for a couple years. no pruning because the flowers can be at the ends of branches sometimes. Slip pot it in a bigger container. Give it lots of high nitrogen fertilizer.
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
how do you prune? pruning in fall/winter can lead to loss of flowers
Yamabudoudanshi
Shohin
It's not that old, but certainly old enough to flower. I have probably been pruning it back in search of branch structure. I kind of suspect I might be removing potential for flower buds. This year I'll leave it alone and fertilize heavy. It's also due for a repot.
Attachments
KyleC
Seedling
vp999
Masterpiece
I dont think there's anyway to tell before flowering.
JoeR
Masterpiece
Lots of really good info here, thank you to all who contributed.
I checked EGW, and they do not have any available. If anybody has Princess persimmon material, any stage, please PM me- especially interested in trying Cathayensis.
@Canada Bonsai , you mentioned you have over 30 varieties, do you have a thread or notes on them? Growing them for eating or bonsai?
I checked EGW, and they do not have any available. If anybody has Princess persimmon material, any stage, please PM me- especially interested in trying Cathayensis.
@Canada Bonsai , you mentioned you have over 30 varieties, do you have a thread or notes on them? Growing them for eating or bonsai?
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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More than 30 now! I’m closer to 50 registered female cultivars, and a dozen male strains.
The link below is a list of the cultivars. The pictures of the fruit came from suppliers for now. I'm working every year on taking my own pictures, and trying to capture the different aspects of each cultivar (the stages of the fruit development, leaf shape, size, and color, general growth habits, etc.).
Princess Persimmon are not edible. I do have 2 varieties of persimmon (not princess) that are edible, but they are just for family for now. I am working on growing some high end strains like kinokawa persimmons for restaurants.
My ume project is further along. I am growing ume both for bonsai as well as for some of the best japanese restaurants in North America who are converting and serving it. I don’t convert much of it myself at the moment
documenting large volumes of cultivars is really tedious work. 50 kaki, 70 ume, 200 azaleas, 50 maples.
thankfully my backround is in the classics (documenting artifacts is a core skill) and in institutional paperwork
JoeR
Masterpiece
Thank you for the reply! Wow, I did not realize it was 50 cultivars of princess persimmon, I thought you meant persimmon in general. The website looks great, I look forward to March to see the debute of your new crops.More than 30 now! I’m closer to 50 registered female cultivars, and a dozen male strains.
The link below is a list of the cultivars. The pictures of the fruit came from suppliers for now. I'm working every year on taking my own pictures, and trying to capture the different aspects of each cultivar (the stages of the fruit development, leaf shape, size, and color, general growth habits, etc.).
Princess Persimmon are not edible. I do have 2 varieties of persimmon (not princess) that are edible, but they are just for family for now. I am working on growing some high end strains like kinokawa persimmons for restaurants.
My ume project is further along. I am growing ume both for bonsai as well as for some of the best japanese restaurants in North America who are converting and serving it. I don’t convert much of it myself at the moment
documenting large volumes of cultivars is really tedious work. 50 kaki, 70 ume, 200 azaleas, 50 maples.
thankfully my backround is in the classics (documenting artifacts is a core skill) and in institutional paperwork
I recognized your name from your posts in the ume cuttings thread- your operation is much more extensive than expected. Glad you are no longer an enigma, hiding these cool projects
leatherback
The Treedeemer
SLightly off topic.. Do you have experience with female plants carrying fruits without being fertilized? Are there indeed varieties that set fruit with being fertilized?
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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Do you mean fertilized or pollinated? I'm wondering because the latter is usually the hot topic with persimmons. I'll answer both in case others are interested.
Fertilizer
I might not have the information you want. But if I remember I will try to separate my parent plants in 3 batches this year and fertilize 3 different ways to compare fruit volumes and sustainability. I can create 3 batches each with 15-20 cultivars (I have duplicate cultivars), which should give me enough of a sample size to rule-out cultivar-dependent outcomes.
In addition to what I mention below, my entire nursery gets dosed with kelp and fish emulsion (1 week kelp, 1 week fish emulsion, 1 week kelp, 1 week fish emulsion, etc.) from around April to October more or less.
Parent plants and pre-bonsai
They all get nutricote (this one: https://www.canadabonsai.com/collections/fertilizer), and biogold every 4 weeks. I apply nutricote on April 1st and it supposedly lasts 100 days that are around 25C, so here in Montreal it likely lasts until mid to late August (just guessing). Observations: These trees fruit well, but would they fruit much better if I eased off the fertilizer? I don't know. I also remove the fruit in November to harvest seed for sale. Would the fruit last and look nice until February like it should? I also don't know.
Advanced specimens (see attached, because pics are fun)
They are fertilized more moderately with only biogold every 4 weeks. However, I manually remove all of the flowers/fruit ASAP.
So I have some information for you, but maybe not what you want:
- For high-dose fertilizer I do get fruit, but maybe volumes could be better, I don't know. I also don't know if longevity of fruit is compromised.
- For low-dose fertilizer, I simply don't know because I remove the fruit.
Pollination
Some kaki will produce fruit without the presence of a male. 3 points are worth stating here. I hired a scientist to research and confirm this, because word of mouth or university textbooks were not sufficient for me. I wanted to know if roya kaki were an anomaly or had any non-standard anatomy.
1) the roya kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male are female;
2) the roya kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male do it without any pollen (they are not producing the pollen themselves). This answers an interesting question: the female kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male cannot pollinate other female plants (if they were producing their own pollen, in theory they could)
3) the roya kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male are equipped to receive pollen in the event that a male was present.
Scenario 1
You have a female plant that requires the presence of a male otherwise it will not produce any fruit at all
Scenario 2
You have a female plant that does not require the presence of a male to produce fruit, and may produce very little or a lot of fruit.
In either scenario, the presence of a male (with coincidental timing of flowering) or the application of gibberellic acid will improve fruit volumes. Here's a good article on Gibberellins.
Methods to ensure fruiting of Persimmon Bonsai
Learn some techniques to keep your persimmon in optimal health and get great fruit each display year!
bonsaiharmony.ca
Seed
Some females will always produce fruit without a seed, regardless of whether a male is present or not. I have manually pollinated hundreds of flowers of cultivars that seemed to be producing fruit without seed (and I used different male strains, too), and they did not produce a single seed. This is not unusual in the world of ornamental cultivars, but it does create a sub-category when we're talking about fruit volumes and fruit longevity. One question that I would love an answer to is: for these female plants that never produce seed, does the presence of a male and/or gibberellic acid improve seedless fruit volumes, or are these plants always just riding solo? Also, does the fruit stay nice-looking and hang onto these plant for just as long as fruit with seed? (as opposed to, say, females that produce seedless fruit on their own without the presence of a male but that produce more fruit with seed when a male is present?)
Longevity of Fruit
It is said that fruit without seed will wither and fall off the tree sooner. The question is what does 'soon' mean here? By mid-November all of the fruit on my trees seems to have gone through its full cycle of color changes, and I remove it in order to harvest seed for sale. In principle, the fruit should hang on and stay nice-looking all the way to Kokufu (February), but personally I have never allowed it to do so.
Maybe there are some answers in here, but I still have lots of questions!
Attachments
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Yeah, I mean pollinated, as in a fertilized eggcell
Reason is that I was told mine should carry fruit without male by the trader. Yet I did not have a single fruit in the first year I had it. So I was wondering whether it is myth, or an happen.
Interestingly, I had LOADS of seed from the fruit that were on the tree when I bought it. And the trader told me that at his place there are no male plants. I *think* he was not completely honest with me.
Hi, I sometimes see Princess Persimmon photos with ball-shaped fruit and sometimes with sort of spearhead shaped fruit. Is this a cultivar difference or a mislabeling?Do you mean fertilized or pollinated? I'm wondering because the latter is usually the hot topic with persimmons. I'll answer both in case others are interested.
Fertilizer
I might not have the information you want. But if I remember I will try to separate my parent plants in 3 batches this year and fertilize 3 different ways to compare fruit volumes and sustainability. I can create 3 batches each with 15-20 cultivars (I have duplicate cultivars), which should give me enough of a sample size to rule-out cultivar-dependent outcomes.
In addition to what I mention below, my entire nursery gets dosed with kelp and fish emulsion (1 week kelp, 1 week fish emulsion, 1 week kelp, 1 week fish emulsion, etc.) from around April to October more or less.
Parent plants and pre-bonsai
They all get nutricote (this one: https://www.canadabonsai.com/collections/fertilizer), and biogold every 4 weeks. I apply nutricote on April 1st and it supposedly lasts 100 days that are around 25C, so here in Montreal it likely lasts until mid to late August (just guessing). Observations: These trees fruit well, but would they fruit much better if I eased off the fertilizer? I don't know. I also remove the fruit in November to harvest seed for sale. Would the fruit last and look nice until February like it should? I also don't know.
Advanced specimens (see attached, because pics are fun)
They are fertilized more moderately with only biogold every 4 weeks. However, I manually remove all of the flowers/fruit ASAP.
So I have some information for you, but maybe not what you want:
- For high-dose fertilizer I do get fruit, but maybe volumes could be better, I don't know. I also don't know if longevity of fruit is compromised.
- For low-dose fertilizer, I simply don't know because I remove the fruit.
Pollination
Some kaki will produce fruit without the presence of a male. 3 points are worth stating here. I hired a scientist to research and confirm this, because word of mouth or university textbooks were not sufficient for me. I wanted to know if roya kaki were an anomaly or had any non-standard anatomy.
1) the roya kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male are female;
2) the roya kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male do it without any pollen (they are not producing the pollen themselves). This answers an interesting question: the female kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male cannot pollinate other female plants (if they were producing their own pollen, in theory they could)
3) the roya kaki that produce fruit without the presence of a male are equipped to receive pollen in the event that a male was present.
Scenario 1
You have a female plant that requires the presence of a male otherwise it will not produce any fruit at all
Scenario 2
You have a female plant that does not require the presence of a male to produce fruit, and may produce very little or a lot of fruit.
In either scenario, the presence of a male (with coincidental timing of flowering) or the application of gibberellic acid will improve fruit volumes. Here's a good article on Gibberellins.
Methods to ensure fruiting of Persimmon Bonsai
Learn some techniques to keep your persimmon in optimal health and get great fruit each display year!
Seed
Some females will always produce fruit without a seed, regardless of whether a male is present or not. I have manually pollinated hundreds of flowers of cultivars that seemed to be producing fruit without seed (and I used different male strains, too), and they did not produce a single seed. This is not unusual in the world of ornamental cultivars, but it does create a sub-category when we're talking about fruit volumes and fruit longevity. One question that I would love an answer to is: for these female plants that never produce seed, does the presence of a male and/or gibberellic acid improve seedless fruit volumes, or are these plants always just riding solo? Also, does the fruit stay nice-looking and hang onto these plant for just as long as fruit with seed? (as opposed to, say, females that produce seedless fruit on their own without the presence of a male but that produce more fruit with seed when a male is present?)
Longevity of Fruit
It is said that fruit without seed will wither and fall off the tree sooner. The question is what does 'soon' mean here? By mid-November all of the fruit on my trees seems to have gone through its full cycle of color changes, and I remove it in order to harvest seed for sale. In principle, the fruit should hang on and stay nice-looking all the way to Kokufu (February), but personally I have never allowed it to do so.
Maybe there are some answers in here, but I still have lots of questions!
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
- Messages
- 522
- Reaction score
- 1,624
There are hundreds of registered cultivars, and even more unregistered strains.
Here is a link to the cultivars i’m working with currently in my garden. I would say they represent well the range of possibilities in terms of size, shape, and color. The combinations of variables is seemingly infinite.
One poorly documented aspect that i would like to improve is leaf size, shape, color, and possibly some measure of ‘ramifiability’ which does vary greatly from what i’ve seen
Persimmons
Over 40 Princess Persimmon (Roya Kaki) varieties are currently being propagated at Canada Bonsai, as well as 3 strains of wild mountain persimmon (Yamagaki)In development are pre-bonsai, bonsai, as well as larger potted trees for gardens and landscapes.Garden centres wishing to order...
www.canadabonsai.com
