What the demos don't tell you.
- Thread starter MichaelS
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
herzausstahl
Chumono
Actually, Adair's correct about the position of the wire being less effective coming from above... nit picky but correct.
I think you are both wrong on this one @Dav4 and @Adair M
...if you are bending a branch downward and you want that bend to start at the trunk...the wire needs to come over the top of that bend to prevent the branch from blowing out at the point of the bend... simple physics
One of the very basic premises of wiring is that the wire should always wrap around the outside of a bend to prevent the branch from breaking at that point...why is this case an exception?
If you are not significantly bending the branch at the point where it meets the trunk, top or bottom wrap really doesn't any difference
You are welcome to disagree until the cows come home, but if you would like to convince us that your way is better I would love to hear the specifics as to why... Simply saying Boon said so, or A Japanese diagram says so doesn't hold any water in my book...please explain WHY it should go under
erb.75
Chumono
I have joined a study group (right now it's just me and someone else) but it is great! this is the stuff we want to do...take our trees to the highest level possible...there are only so many willing to put in the work unfortunately, but it does make scheduling the study group easier!
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
@erb.75,
please be careful, the original use of Tree Penjing [ aka Bonsai ] was to stimulate ideas for writing, poetry, ink painting.
it was not about designed trees or putting them on display, like paintings.
The tree will outgrow the design and disappointment might set in.
Nothing has changed, since the ancient days of China.
Enjoy the friendship, the discussions and if you do, the ideas towards writing, poetry etc.
Good Day
Anthony
please be careful, the original use of Tree Penjing [ aka Bonsai ] was to stimulate ideas for writing, poetry, ink painting.
it was not about designed trees or putting them on display, like paintings.
The tree will outgrow the design and disappointment might set in.
Nothing has changed, since the ancient days of China.
Enjoy the friendship, the discussions and if you do, the ideas towards writing, poetry etc.
Good Day
Anthony
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I'd like to delete my comment now....
Seriously, in my experience, coming up from below creates a tighter bend downward which, mechanically speaking, gives more strength to that first loop of wire hitting the branch which allows me to use lighter wire gauges, and I can tighten my coils as I come over the top and get the first bend right where I want it. Again, just my experience, but it makes sense to me. When I've done it the other way, I need to use heavier wire to do the job.
erb.75
Chumono
but I don't want to write poetry or paint with ink....I just want badass trees!
erb.75
Chumono
and the friendship, that's good too
Please excuse my poor drawing. Take a look:
By coming from under, you're able to run the wire right over the top of curve where the branch is being forced down.
Look at Michael's wiring. The first loop of wire over the top is an inch or more away from the joint. Puts a lot of stress on that section of branch with no support.
I would wire it like the yellow lines. Coming under, then over the top of the branch much closer to the trunk. Putting the wire over the section where the bend is taking place.
Yes, it's nit picking. I'm sure Michael was careful not to break the branch. But it's easier to break the branch wired the way Michael did than the way I would have.
Once it's on, both methods will work. I feel my way is safer and more effective.
That's a poor example....it is not wired correctly to begin with...your way makes the rainbow branches you like so much...
look at the wire on the branch directly above the one you marked up in the photo....that is where the wire should be for most the effective bending down...
Anwser this Adair... further down the brach when placing a bend where do you want the wire...inside of the curve or outside of the curve? Why should this be different???
Another way to think about...when bending a branch do you want the wire to protect the side in compression or the side in tension(being stretched)? Surely its not best one way in one place on the branch and the other way in another place??
Please explain?
look at the wire on the branch directly above the one you marked up in the photo....that is where the wire should be for most the effective bending down...
Anwser this Adair... further down the brach when placing a bend where do you want the wire...inside of the curve or outside of the curve? Why should this be different???
Another way to think about...when bending a branch do you want the wire to protect the side in compression or the side in tension(being stretched)? Surely its not best one way in one place on the branch and the other way in another place??
Please explain?
my nellie
Masterpiece
Yes, indeed!
This is exactly what we (at our local club) have been taught by Mr. Peter Warren during his workshops with us.
John, of course we want to support the side in tension. I try to put the wire on the outside of the curve.
My yellow drawing... again let me apologise for the poor drawing, it was hard for me to draw accurately with my finger on my iPhone... what I'm trying to depict is start under, go up behind the branch, lay the wire on top of the branch as it first starts to go down the branch. Supporting the stressed section right there at the beginning of the branch. Does not my yellow line show that? The line is broken where it goes behind the branch.
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I don't obviously know much about Bonsai... 
But have managed to wire a tree once or twice ... perhaps three times? I can't remember. .. I know it wasn't much?
And from my humble backyard tinkerings...
I would of thought that everyone was wrong?
But what do I know?
See, I would of thought that it actually made no difference. .. as long as the wire ended up on the outside of where the bend was intended to be.
That on a larger branch... it is mathematically impossible to bend much closer to the actual trunk than about an inch away from the trunk in the first place. Due to something called Physics... and dispersement of weight in equal parts. Which tells us that the amount of force needed to bend any closer to the trunk would result in this force having to be released somewhere...
Either further out...resulting in the break there...
Or closer in... resulting in the crotch tearing...
So, this would at least tell myself... that on a heavier brach, you will always end up with a little bit of a hump, if trying to bend straight down... seeing that the branch normally comes off the trunk in an upward direction.
That the only way to really alleviate such a hump, would be to introduce a bend into the crotch, thus ripping it.
If we are not going to be able to bend really any closer than this inch away from the trunk... than as long as there is a wire wrapped above this point, ie. The outside of the bend... than in fact it actually makes no difference from which direction the wire came from.
Bummer!
That what would make sense... would instead be which direction you wanted to "Twist" the branch or the other branch that the wire is "attached" too... in the actual process of bending the branch down.
Ie... if you wanted to "twist" the branch in the process of bending down to the"Right" in the the case of the Photograph with the circles an yellow lines... That you would first want to come over the crotch as the OP has done and then bring the wire up and over to the "Right". And the opposite, of first under, and up and over to the "Left", to twist to the "left".
That in all actuality. .. every branch being brought straight down, should have some sort of "twist " , even if slightly... to alleviate the amount of pressure built up within the bend. That by introducing a "twist"... you will always find you are much more able to accomplish a lot more distance with the amount of how far you can bring the branch down. That a straight line... is far to great of an obstacle to over come. Thus why you do not see mountain roads going staight down... but instead meandering back in forth.
The stress is much to great...
Now as far as the title and subject of the thread... I wouldn't think that demos... would tell you what to do with your tree a year later... unless, well ... they were a Demonstration on what to do with your tree a Year Later? So, not sure where the surprise is? I mean... I would of thought that really there wasn't much need for a Year Later Demonstration... seeing, it is pretty self explanatory?
If you have to take the wire off cause it is biting in... well, then you take the wire off.
If you have to add more... or want to change something, than you add more.
If you need to trim some foliage... you trim some foliage...
Do we honestly need someone to tell us this?
Not trying to be mean here.... just seems a little like... stuff a guy who doesn't know Bonsai... like myself... should be kinda able to figure out?
Back to my tinkering in my backyard.. in the hopes that one day I might be smart, and figure all this Bonsai stuff out.
But have managed to wire a tree once or twice ... perhaps three times? I can't remember. .. I know it wasn't much?
And from my humble backyard tinkerings...
I would of thought that everyone was wrong?
But what do I know?
See, I would of thought that it actually made no difference. .. as long as the wire ended up on the outside of where the bend was intended to be.
That on a larger branch... it is mathematically impossible to bend much closer to the actual trunk than about an inch away from the trunk in the first place. Due to something called Physics... and dispersement of weight in equal parts. Which tells us that the amount of force needed to bend any closer to the trunk would result in this force having to be released somewhere...
Either further out...resulting in the break there...
Or closer in... resulting in the crotch tearing...
So, this would at least tell myself... that on a heavier brach, you will always end up with a little bit of a hump, if trying to bend straight down... seeing that the branch normally comes off the trunk in an upward direction.
That the only way to really alleviate such a hump, would be to introduce a bend into the crotch, thus ripping it.
If we are not going to be able to bend really any closer than this inch away from the trunk... than as long as there is a wire wrapped above this point, ie. The outside of the bend... than in fact it actually makes no difference from which direction the wire came from.
Bummer!That what would make sense... would instead be which direction you wanted to "Twist" the branch or the other branch that the wire is "attached" too... in the actual process of bending the branch down.
Ie... if you wanted to "twist" the branch in the process of bending down to the"Right" in the the case of the Photograph with the circles an yellow lines... That you would first want to come over the crotch as the OP has done and then bring the wire up and over to the "Right". And the opposite, of first under, and up and over to the "Left", to twist to the "left".
That in all actuality. .. every branch being brought straight down, should have some sort of "twist " , even if slightly... to alleviate the amount of pressure built up within the bend. That by introducing a "twist"... you will always find you are much more able to accomplish a lot more distance with the amount of how far you can bring the branch down. That a straight line... is far to great of an obstacle to over come. Thus why you do not see mountain roads going staight down... but instead meandering back in forth.
The stress is much to great...
Now as far as the title and subject of the thread... I wouldn't think that demos... would tell you what to do with your tree a year later... unless, well ... they were a Demonstration on what to do with your tree a Year Later? So, not sure where the surprise is? I mean... I would of thought that really there wasn't much need for a Year Later Demonstration... seeing, it is pretty self explanatory?
If you have to take the wire off cause it is biting in... well, then you take the wire off.
If you have to add more... or want to change something, than you add more.
If you need to trim some foliage... you trim some foliage...
Do we honestly need someone to tell us this?
Not trying to be mean here.... just seems a little like... stuff a guy who doesn't know Bonsai... like myself... should be kinda able to figure out?
Back to my tinkering in my backyard.. in the hopes that one day I might be smart, and figure all this Bonsai stuff out.
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Ok lets get this wiring thing out of the way.
There are 4 ways to wire a branch when we are lowering it or bringing it outwards (to the outside of the tree) OR if we are raising it or moving it towards the inside of the tree. And/or bending it right or left. And/ or twisting it clockwise or anti-clockwise.
1 down from the top and clockwise.
2 down from the top and anti-clockwise.
3 up from beneath and clockwise.
4 up from beneath and anti-clockwise.
1 is for bringing a branch down (or out) and for twisting or bending to the left.
2 is for bringing a branch down (or out) and for twisting or bending to the right.
3 is for bringing it up (or back) and twisting or bending to the right.
4 is for bringing it up (or back) and twisting or bending to the left.
If we don't need to do any of the above but just want to put some waves or a bit of movement further down the branch, we can wire 1, 2, 3 or 4.
That's it.
There are 4 ways to wire a branch when we are lowering it or bringing it outwards (to the outside of the tree) OR if we are raising it or moving it towards the inside of the tree. And/or bending it right or left. And/ or twisting it clockwise or anti-clockwise.
1 down from the top and clockwise.
2 down from the top and anti-clockwise.
3 up from beneath and clockwise.
4 up from beneath and anti-clockwise.
1 is for bringing a branch down (or out) and for twisting or bending to the left.
2 is for bringing a branch down (or out) and for twisting or bending to the right.
3 is for bringing it up (or back) and twisting or bending to the right.
4 is for bringing it up (or back) and twisting or bending to the left.
If we don't need to do any of the above but just want to put some waves or a bit of movement further down the branch, we can wire 1, 2, 3 or 4.
That's it.
Ralf, that's the least you need to worry about with this group. The reason for the kinks are probably the result of leader replacement. Eventually they will not be noticed much as the density covers them but even if they still are, the fact that these trunks are straight but not formal, it's quite acceptable to have a bit of movement here and there.
If you are bending down, this method is simply wrong. On my wiring, you will notice a small gap where the wire does not touch the branch. This is because it was very lightly wired and there was no need for firm contact because the branch was already previously set. However, as I do not want it to drift back up I still wired in this fashion as you should.
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