Do bonsai demos have value?

[Saddler]

I was just in japan. Wonderful place japan is. I really want to go back to japan because I saw some amazing bonsai in japan. Unfortunately I missed a demo that was just finishing as I arrived, in tokyo.

 

[markyscott]

Having just organized a convention in Houston, this is an interesting issue to me. At one point I proposed deleting the demo’s from the convention we held in April. We kicked it around as a group for some time, but ended up holding them anyway, primarily out of concern that NOT doing them would limit the opportunities for most folks to interact with the artists. Ryan Neil, for instance, was one of our headliners. He was fantastic at the convention, but had one full day workshop that was limited to 6 people. He had one lecture, one ‘artist spotlight’, and one critique, all limited to 30 people- many of whom were the same individuals. Those events were booked full in just a few weeks after registration opened. That meant that somewhere around 40-50 people spent time with him, but the only opportunity for the other 150 or so people had to interact with him was at the demo. The situation was similar with the other artists. So in the end, we held them, but not without some discomfort on my part as I think their value as an educational platform is limited.

Perhaps there is a different way to do demo’s? Why do we always do a soup-to-nuts styling demo and ask the artists to explain what they would do differently if they were doing it properly? How about ‘techniques’ -focused demo’s instead? I can imagine a demo focusing on types of grafting, for instance. Or perhaps one could be done on proper repotting techniques. Or alternatively, if styling was the focus, maybe folks could bring in their own trees and the artist could discuss how they would approach development if the trees were in their garden. I’m curious, how would you react to that kind of demo if it was offered? If we delete the demo, what would you suggest be offer instead that would address the issue I described above? Or is limiting the exposure of the artists to a fraction of the attendees not as big of a deal as I think it is?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

- S

 

[Djtommy]

0so, there is some of that in Japan, for sure. Especially for the really top of the high end bonsai. There are lots of hobbyists as well.

Perhaps @Djtommy can give us better insight into that since he lives there. I’ve also sent Kaya Mooney a message asking about it. He’s an apprentice at the place Bjorn was at, so he can tell me what he has observed during his time there.

There are demos in japan, and workshops from time to time, perhaps not as many as in other country’s but there are. Often that’s beginner material not styling a Yamadori.
Perhaps it comes down to the commitment people have. I think most western that buy bonsai really get into it and want to get to know everything involved.
In japan enough people would buy one but have no interest in what cambium layers is or even in putting wire on it.
But they can still like to have one, not just the high end and for these people you need somewhat finished trees. They won’t buy anything that is unstyled and would rather buy a wired tree that looks ok then buying an unwired with much more potential.

But I like demos, I think there is something to learn from them,

 

[Lorax7]

What they did not explain was that most of the time the effect was temporary unless the restraining wire is left on for a very long time! Think one year at least.

Actually, they did a really good job of explaining that as they went into explaining why they were using re-bar jammed into the soil instead of just attaching the guy wires to the pot. The rationale was: we don’t want to attach to the pot because this needs to stay on for a long time to set into place and, if we attach the wires to the re-bar instead of the pot, we can repot the tree in the future without having to remove the guy wires.

 

[Shibui]

Perhaps there is a different way to do demo’s? Why do we always do a soup-to-nuts styling demo and ask the artists to explain what they would do differently if they were doing it properly? How about ‘techniques’ -focused demo’s instead? I can imagine a demo focusing on types of grafting, for instance. Or perhaps one could be done on proper repotting techniques. Or alternatively, if styling was the focus, maybe folks could bring in their own trees and the artist could discuss how they would approach development if the trees were in their garden. I’m curious, how would you react to that kind of demo if it was offered?

Over here, 'demo' often means just this - the talk and/or demonstration focusses on a particular aspect, skill or technique of bonsai. The demonstrator might run a theory session illustrated with pictures or work on several different trees to show some of the permutations of the technique. There are still plenty of 'convert raw stock to bonsai' demos but we do see a healthy number of the other technique based demo as well.

I guess that would also be most of what I get out of any sort of demo - the thought processes and techniques applied during the session, especially when the presenter is able to explain what they are considering and why when making decisions, and talk about the technique they are using as they do it. Explanations of when, where and why as well as limitations of the technique are all very useful to learn.
Unfortunately, some great bonsai artists are not great communicators.

 

[Vance Wood]

Having just organized a convention in Houston, this is an interesting issue to me. At one point I proposed deleting the demo’s from the convention we held in April. We kicked it around as a group for some time, but ended up holding them anyway, primarily out of concern that NOT doing them would limit the opportunities for most folks to interact with the artists. Ryan Neil, for instance, was one of our headliners. He was fantastic at the convention, but had one full day workshop that was limited to 6 people. He had one lecture, one ‘artist spotlight’, and one critique, all limited to 30 people- many of whom were the same individuals. Those events were booked full in just a few weeks after registration opened. That meant that somewhere around 40-50 people spent time with him, but the only opportunity for the other 150 or so people had to interact with him was at the demo. The situation was similar with the other artists. So in the end, we held them, but not without some discomfort on my part as I think their value as an educational platform is limited.

Perhaps there is a different way to do demo’s? Why do we always do a soup-to-nuts styling demo and ask the artists to explain what they would do differently if they were doing it properly? How about ‘techniques’ -focused demo’s instead? I can imagine a demo focusing on types of grafting, for instance. Or perhaps one could be done on proper repotting techniques. Or alternatively, if styling was the focus, maybe folks could bring in their own trees and the artist could discuss how they would approach development if the trees were in their garden. I’m curious, how would you react to that kind of demo if it was offered? If we delete the demo, what would you suggest be offer instead that would address the issue I described above? Or is limiting the exposure of the artists to a fraction of the attendees not as big of a deal as I think it is?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

- S

You have to think about this but inspiration is the entire purpose of a demonstration. It's kind of like having a concert without the live bands. Think about it; we are going to have a concert and listen to recordings? Hold a convention and have no demonstrations????? What kind of convention will you have??? BORING, BORING, BORING. You are going to have a vendors area so people can buy trees and pots and wire and books(?)? People, especially new people are going to come to see people they have heard about, or have seen on the Net, work on a tree. Let us not forget the ubiquitous workshops. Who is going to pay money for these workshops without the talent attracted to justify their existence/ You??

 

[Cadillactaste]

I've seen demo junipers (photos of before and after on FB)...with very little foliage left by the one doing it. I ponder even with appropriate aftercare...will it recover.
I respect the one who styled it...so imagine the one styling must understand it's breaking point. Or hope so.

Adam Lavigne gave a demo...he was interesting. Had a lot of information on the species itself. Explained his thoughts on deciduous trees. That usually in nature they have a bit of trunk...with the first branch starting a tad higher. Typically they are...never thought of that. Anyways I feel the tree he worked would handle the styling he offered it. Never doubted if...and was glad the tree had a chance for the one who took it home. It was my first actual experience with a demo. And I enjoyed it.

I really enjoyed my private lesson where he styled my tree and explained things and shared a couple tricks I didn't know... that was a bit more personal to myself.

 

[just.wing.it]

The only demos I've seen are via YouTube.
I do appreciate them. I think that, as others have stated, its helpful to see in real time how one goes about styling a tree, solving specific problems and so on.
Mirai's Detail Cam is awesome, and takes the video learning to the next level.
I've definitely learned a lot from online demos.....and there's always more to learn....the is my 5th season with the hobby/art and I'm still green on the vine...
Things I thought I had figured out 2 years ago are stumping me now....its an ever evolving endeavor in many ways and demos are a useful learning tool.

Demos can also be just fun to watch as a pastime....can be inspiring, or make you think, "I'd have done it differently....."
I like em.

 

[Maloghurst]

Japan. It's Japan. You should have capitalized in paragraph two.

 

[River's Edge]

"How about ‘techniques’ -focused demo’s instead? I can imagine a demo focusing on types of grafting, for instance. Or perhaps one could be done on proper repotting techniques. Or alternatively, if styling was the focus, maybe folks could bring in their own trees and the artist could discuss how they would approach development if the trees were in their garden. "

I like the above suggestions, if the interactions are to be meaningful then by default they will be limited in participation numbers!
Perhaps the Artists could be given the option of choosing how they participate and setting the format. Different styles of teaching, different focus on material. Then let the participants decide based on the variety of content presented!
Some artists are very comfortable in front of hundreds of people others are at their very best in small groups. I think it boils down to a balance of entertainment and education.
Workshops where participants bring their own tree's for critique and development plans are always full and popular.

 

[River's Edge]

Actually, they did a really good job of explaining that as they went into explaining why they were using re-bar jammed into the soil instead of just attaching the guy wires to the pot. The rationale was: we don’t want to attach to the pot because this needs to stay on for a long time to set into place and, if we attach the wires to the re-bar instead of the pot, we can repot the tree in the future without having to remove the guy wires.

My mistake for assuming that was left out in the above case. I should have said in my experience often that part of the explanation is missed, and often even with all those steps the end effect is not as desired!

 

[coh]

Perhaps there is a different way to do demo’s? Why do we always do a soup-to-nuts styling demo and ask the artists to explain what they would do differently if they were doing it properly? How about ‘techniques’ -focused demo’s instead? I can imagine a demo focusing on types of grafting, for instance. Or perhaps one could be done on proper repotting techniques. Or alternatively, if styling was the focus, maybe folks could bring in their own trees and the artist could discuss how they would approach development if the trees were in their garden. I’m curious, how would you react to that kind of demo if it was offered? If we delete the demo, what would you suggest be offer instead that would address the issue I described above? Or is limiting the exposure of the artists to a fraction of the attendees not as big of a deal as I think it is?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

- S

Scott, one of the more interesting demo set-ups I saw was at one of the MABS spring festivals a few years ago. They had the demonstrators do a 2-3 hour "standard" demo but because of the nature of the material (size, complexity) the work wasn't finished in that time. So the demonstrators were moved to side rooms where they could continue to work until they were satisfied (and a new "primary" demo would then start in the main room). This allowed smaller groups of people to rotate in/out of the work areas. You could get right up to see what was being done, easily ask questions - quite a different feel than the standard demo. I liked it but haven't really seen that done anywhere else. I think one benefit is that the demonstrators didn't feel rushed to complete the work in the standard 2-3 hours period so the results were better.

 

[Clicio]

Very interesting discussion.
I have attended a few demos here and one of the artists told me afterwards that the failure rate was more than 70% of the worked trees.
On the other hand, good videos and artists that show the results after a few months are great, but... They are far from the feeling of "being there", asking questions, seeing the trees in 3D.
In the end I like @markyscott s suggestions a lot.

 

[leatherback]

If we delete the demo, what would you suggest be offer instead that would address the issue I described above? Or is limiting the exposure of the artists to a fraction of the attendees not as big of a deal as I think it is?

In our regional show this year we decided to turn the tables. We had the people selected for the new talent contest to style a juniper, as practice, during the show. Each started after the other. With 4 persons there was always someone working on a tree. Aim was also to have interaction: They just worked on a table in the main exhibitions area.
So there were no real demo's as such, but rather, any styling done was by newer persons in the hobby, and discussion of the process was encouraged.

Next to that, we invited a Yew expert who had a "discuss your tree" session, after which the audience was taken to the main exhibition area where he went to the Yews on exhibit to do a Q&A on these trees.

Finally, we asked a very critical artist to do tours of the trees, walking around and over a period of 2 hours discuss each tree -of which the owner had OK-ed a discussion- in the exhibition.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have always felt guilty about destroying someone else's tree so from the beginning I have always worked on my own trees. So if I killed the tree I killed my own. I have lost very few from demos.

 

[Adair M]

One of the best demos I have ever seen took place at the Winter Silohette Show in Kannapolis in 2017, and 2018.

At the one in December, 2017, Tyler Sherrard was the primary artist with assistance by Juan Andrade. The tree was a Japanese Red Pine owned by Tyler that had been gifted to Tyler from Boon as a graduation gift for completing his apprenticeship with Shinji Suzuki. So, it was nice material to work with as a start. Having two guys work on the tree meant the work progressed rapidly, and if a question came from the audience, Tyler could stop and give a thoughtful answer while Juan continued working. Tyler kept the tree. He mentioned that he just “set the bones” in place, and didn’t want to overwork the tree.

In December, 2018, he brought the same tree back for it’s second round of styling. Thus time he was assisted by his Senior, Matt Reel, who also apprenticed with Mr. Suzuki. They built upon the work of the previous styling, and moved the tree forward in its journey.

I hope Tyler brings it back again this year as I really enjoyed seeing the changes that occurred over the year. (I wonder who he can get to be his assistant next time? Lol!!)

 

[Lorax7]

Actually, they did a really good job of explaining that as they went into explaining why they were using re-bar jammed into the soil instead of just attaching the guy wires to the pot. The rationale was: we don’t want to attach to the pot because this needs to stay on for a long time to set into place and, if we attach the wires to the re-bar instead of the pot, we can repot the tree in the future without having to remove the guy wires.

P.S. The technique is no longer in the category of “something really cool that I saw in a demo once but was too timid to try”. It is now firmly in the category of “thing that I would have trouble remembering all of the steps from start to finish but have at least tried once, with the help of a couple other knowledgeable people”.

 

[leatherback]

I've seen demo junipers (photos of before and after on FB)...with very little foliage left by the one doing it. I ponder even with appropriate aftercare...will it recover.

I find people shout way too fast that a tree will die. Especially by juniper there seems to be this myth that if you remove more than 50% of the foliage it will die.

So far I have to still see the first juniper in my care die of too much trimming. And some of my trees I have taken over 90% off in the first styling.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I find people shout way too fast that a tree will die. Especially by juniper there seems to be this myth that if you remove more than 50% of the foliage it will die.

So far I have to still see the first juniper in my care die of too much trimming. And some of my trees I have taken over 90% off in the first styling.

I don't do juniper... but it's so paroted that I still think it.

 

[M. Frary]

You have to think about this but inspiration is the entire purpose of a demonstration. It's kind of like having a concert without the live bands. Think about it; we are going to have a concert and listen to recordings? Hold a convention and have no demonstrations????? What kind of convention will you have??? BORING, BORING, BORING. You are going to have a vendors area so people can buy trees and pots and wire and books(?)? People, especially new people are going to come to see people they have heard about, or have seen on the Net, work on a tree. Let us not forget the ubiquitous workshops. Who is going to pay money for these workshops without the talent attracted to justify their existence/ You??

Right.
How many people that come to our show just stand there and watch you or I work on trees.
What we do is almost like a show long demo.