What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[Trenthany]

Philosophically, the Apex is leaned forward, branches as open arms, to be Welcoming as Customary in Japan.

Welcoming which includes thoughtful choice of Tea Bowl as it suits each guest particularly.

Whereas we simply offer a Packaged Beverage.

Make your Apex a Stella, a Modelo, a Guiness perhaps.

Not a Fucking Busch Light!

Sorce

Speaking my language!

 

[jaco94]

In the beginning , i did not really understood this story of tilting the tree towards the observer , but after à while it seems logical to me .
The top of the tree is in a way its head , if it turns to me , i will be in better conditions to contemplate it ( connection between the observer and the subject observed ) .
This inclination creates the opening and the link between the tree and me .

 

[Trenthany]

For the life of me I can't understand the virulent resistance to the obvious with this. Forward lean in a trees adds perspective, subtle, yeah, but it's there. Simple artistic technique used for literally hundreds of years in Western and Eastern art.

Way late to this intense discussion but after reading most of it it really only seems to apply when you have a pointed canopy such as pines. Some broadleaf trees get that kind of a shape but if you use arcing canopy’s it will be far less pronounced. Of course a similar effect will occur no matter which way the trunk is pointed with an arching canopy because those upper branches come towards the viewer and the front of the trunk is typically kept clear to show case it. That will lead to a top forward feel.

Just an observation from a newb but while it does make for a better looking tree typically the point is that it’s not required in all mostly upright trees depending on species and style. That’s my feeling of what OP is asking from the OPs original post.

 

[rockm]

Way late to this intense discussion but after reading most of it it really only seems to apply when you have a pointed canopy such as pines. Some broadleaf trees get that kind of a shape but if you use arcing canopy’s it will be far less pronounced. Of course a similar effect will occur no matter which way the trunk is pointed with an arching canopy because those upper branches come towards the viewer and the front of the trunk is typically kept clear to show case it. That will lead to a top forward feel.

Just an observation from a newb but while it does make for a better looking tree typically the point is that it’s not required in all mostly upright trees depending on species and style. That’s my feeling of what OP is asking from the OPs original post.

Nope. Forward lean works with all species.

 

[Trenthany]

Nope. Forward lean works with all species.
[/QUOTE
But is it necessary in all species and stylings was his point. I think it’s not necessary but almost always more attractive and I think that’s his point. When can another look be used and turn out as or more attractive. There have to be exceptions beyond formal upright and broom.

 

[Adair M]

Not really.

This isn’t a rule for the sake of rules. Trees look better with a slight lean forward due to our binocular vision and our perception of perspective.

Another way of looking at it: have you ever seen a tree where the apex moves away from you? Not just a view from the rear of the tree, but one where you’re looking at the intended front, and the tree is styled so that it’s moving away. Did you like it? Or did it make you feel that “something’s not right”?

 

[Trenthany]

Not really.

This isn’t a rule for the sake of rules. Trees look better with a slight lean forward due to our binocular vision and our perception of perspective.

Another way of looking at it: have you ever seen a tree where the apex moves away from you? Not just a view from the rear of the tree, but one where you’re looking at the intended front, and the tree is styled so that it’s moving away. Did you like it? Or did it make you feel that “something’s not right”?

Not that I can think of. I’m still learning to judge “good” trees vs bad though and typically judge based on technical ability needed to achieve result or my own personal opinion of the tree. I’m just saying I can’t think of a time where forward pushing isn’t going to result in a better tree but that I’m open to seeing one.

I’m also far from arguing that apexes should point away, but I did see an interesting almost fallen cypress from an angle that pushed it away. All the branches had aimed upward and it gave me a cool forced perspective of a line of trees into the distance because the tops Of the branches were almost level with each other because of the angle the tree was at.

 

[rockm]

Not that I can think of. I’m still learning to judge “good” trees vs bad though and typically judge based on technical ability needed to achieve result or my own personal opinion of the tree. I’m just saying I can’t think of a time where forward pushing isn’t going to result in a better tree but that I’m open to seeing one.

I’m also far from arguing that apexes should point away, but I did see an interesting almost fallen cypress from an angle that pushed it away. All the branches had aimed upward and it gave me a cool forced perspective of a line of trees into the distance because the tops Of the branches were almost level with each other because of the angle the tree was at.

You've got to get out to see good and great bonsai. Many intermediate and beginner bonsaiists don't bother with using this technique and don't understand it well, unfortunately.

I'm lucky in that I live only 10 miles from the best bonsai collection outside of Japan.

Bonsai & Penjing Museum Collections in DC — National Bonsai Foundation

Museum Collections

www.bonsai-nbf.org

If you see the majority of these trees in person, most (not all) have a pronounced forward lean when viewed from the side, including many of the penjing.

 

[Trenthany]

You've got to get out to see good and great bonsai. Many intermediate and beginner bonsaiists don't bother with using this technique and don't understand it well, unfortunately.

I'm lucky in that I live only 10 miles from the best bonsai collection outside of Japan.

Bonsai & Penjing Museum Collections in DC — National Bonsai Foundation

Museum Collections

www.bonsai-nbf.org

If you see the majority of these trees in person, most (not all) have a pronounced forward lean when viewed from the side, including many of the penjing.

I’m good at abstract concepts so I get why and how it works. I’m sure the vast majority do follow that and I understand why. I’m just curious if OP is right and there are times or trees where it can be a better choice not to follow that guideline.

 

[rockm]

I’m good at abstract concepts so I get why and how it works. I’m sure the vast majority do follow that and I understand why. I’m just curious if OP is right and there are times or trees where it can be a better choice not to follow that guideline.

Well, sure, there are always exceptions...It's art after all. However, many don't understand how or why to make that exception, or they're just ignoring it, or worse, trashing it without understanding it because its a "rule." (which is a pet peeve of mine. Rules are rules in bonsai, not because they're handed down from little old bonsai masters, but because the principles that mhake up the rules are solidly grounded in tried and true visual techniques.)

 

[Adair M]

You've got to get out to see good and great bonsai. Many intermediate and beginner bonsaiists don't bother with using this technique and don't understand it well, unfortunately.

I'm lucky in that I live only 10 miles from the best bonsai collection outside of Japan.

Bonsai & Penjing Museum Collections in DC — National Bonsai Foundation

Museum Collections

www.bonsai-nbf.org

If you see the majority of these trees in person, most (not all) have a pronounced forward lean when viewed from the side, including many of the penjing.

Oh, do you live 10 miles from the Kennett Collection? That’s the best collection in the US. Maybe you meant best “collection open to the public”. Lol!

But your point is valid. Seeing great bonsai in person is important. Photographs do not convert the image that our eyes perceive of 3 dimensional objects.

 

[Trenthany]

Well, sure, there are always exceptions...It's art after all. However, many don't understand how or why to make that exception, or they're just ignoring it, or worse, trashing it without understanding it because its a "rule." (which is a pet peeve of mine. Rules are rules in bonsai, not because they're handed down from little old bonsai masters, but because the principles that mhake up the rules are solidly grounded in tried and true visual techniques.)

This is the best argument to make. You tell SU2, almost never is when you ignore the roe because it is established based on sound visual principals to make trees more attractive from a certain perspective. If you don’t have any real front on a tree that would be the rare time you wouldn’t need that rule.

 

[rockm]

Oh, do you live 10 miles from the Kennett Collection? That’s the best collection in the US. Maybe you meant best “collection open to the public”. Lol!

But your point is valid. Seeing great bonsai in person is important. Photographs do not convert the image that our eyes perceive of 3 dimensional objects.

I mean the best collection of bonsai outside of Japan. The arb has it. Kennett collection is nice, but those trees are not here because of their history or generosity. Trees at the arb are better by way of history, pedigree and intention. Any trees in the Kennet collection from the Imperial Household given by Prince Takamatsu because he likes someone there? Any trees called up by the White House for diplomatic duty? ;-)

 

[Adair M]

I mean the best collection of bonsai outside of Japan. The arb has it. Kennett collection is nice, but those trees are not here because of their history or generosity. Trees at the arb are better by way of history, pedigree and intention. Any trees in the Kennet collection from the Imperial Household given by Prince Takamatsu because he likes someone there? Any trees called up by the White House for diplomatic duty? ;-)

Well, I was referring strictly by quality. Not provenance.

Don’t get me wrong, I like trees with provenance. But provenance doesn’t necessarily mean it is a “better” tree than one without.

Trees kept at the National Arboretum have not always received the best care. Unfortunately. Naka’s Goshin, for example, was allowed to get way overgrown. Hopefully, the situation is better now.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think that artistic freedom overrules every "guideline". If it works, then it works.

When it works, if it works. Otherwise when you get tired of quasi master judges of shows continually telling you that you need to incline the tree toward the viewer. It is of course their oppinion and not doing so--- is your opinion, so who do you think is right and are you ready to resist the quasy judge show judge because of a principle you believe in? How far do you hope to advance in the world of bonsai, shows, demonstrations and programs? I go to shows now and find that I cannot take a workshop because most of the treachers don't want me in the workshop. They think I will challeng their position on everything.

 

[rockm]

Well, I was referring strictly by quality. Not provenance.

Don’t get me wrong, I like trees with provenance. But provenance doesn’t necessarily mean it is a “better” tree than one without.

Trees kept at the National Arboretum have not always received the best care. Unfortunately. Naka’s Goshin, for example, was allowed to get way overgrown. Hopefully, the situation is better now.

If you have deep pockets and don't rely on cranky federal budgeting, yeah, your tree care can be as spectacular as your trees. FWIW, The trees at the arb aren't "allowed" to get overgrown. It happens when you're relying on volunteers, public donations and Congress/White House for support...YOU can make a difference. Arb's looking for donations....got their annual report this afternoon...

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

When it works, if it works. Otherwise when you get tired of quasi master judges of shows continually telling you that you need to incline the tree toward the viewer. It is of course their oppinion and not doing so--- is your opinion, so who do you think is right and are you ready to resist the quasy judge show judge because of a principle you believe in? How far do you hope to advance in the world of bonsai, shows, demonstrations and programs? I go to shows now and find that I cannot take a workshop because most of the treachers don't want me in the workshop. They think I will challeng their position on everything.

Please do challenge my ideas, it's the only way to know for sure if they're any good. If I can't defend them, then they're probably just not that good.
I know I'm probably responding to a rhetoric question, but my aim in bonsai is to have nice trees to look at for myself. The judges will be my garden visitors that look at my sticks and tell me they're nice or not. That's all I need. If I ever give demonstrations, it'd be about plant physiology and applied techniques, not about design.

 

[Adair M]

When it works, if it works. Otherwise when you get tired of quasi master judges of shows continually telling you that you need to incline the tree toward the viewer. It is of course their oppinion and not doing so--- is your opinion, so who do you think is right and are you ready to resist the quasy judge show judge because of a principle you believe in? How far do you hope to advance in the world of bonsai, shows, demonstrations and programs? I go to shows now and find that I cannot take a workshop because most of the treachers don't want me in the workshop. They think I will challeng their position on everything.

Well, if you are a participant in a workshop, and constantly refute what the teacher is saying, Just out oof stubbornness, you’re ruining the experience for everyone else.

I once attended and paid for a workshop given by Warren Hill. It was on Japanese Black Pines. I had brought a great piece of material that would have made a very nice informal upright tree.

During the workshop, he told me that yes, it would make a nice informL upright, but he challenged me to think of a different design. So, I came up with a slant. He said, no, try again. Eventually, he forced me into a “two line semi-cascade”. Actually, it was more of a windswept. It required me to remove 2/3 of the foliage. It lived, but I always hated it.

The class was in October, late October. He had everyone decandle their pines! He said it was the right time to do it! I didn’t decandle mine. I didn’t argue, I just didn’t do it. Next,the class was supposed to teach wiring. Well, I wasthe only one who brought copper wire. He tooksome of my 8 gauge copper, cut a piece off about 6 inches long. Then cut each end so that the wire was sharp. Then went to a tree, and grabbed a branch, pushed it down, and then jabbed one end of the piece of copper into the branch, then positioned the other end into the trunk. So that it propped the branch down. He said, “there you go! That’s all you ever need to do!”

I didn’t start a fight, it was his workshop, other than cutting the tree and styling it his way, I just refused to do the things he said. (If I had heard his wiring and decandling advice first, I would have known he was off his rocker, and I wouldn’t have cut the tree! I thought he had some brilliant idea that I wax too stupid to see, so I let him guide me. Mud-guide me as it turned out.)

This was Warren Hill. He used to be the curator of the National Collection that @rockm is so proud of. And he also allowed many other important pieces decline in health. Not because they were under funded by Congress, by sheer incompetence.

 

[Trenthany]

Well, if you are a participant in a workshop, and constantly refute what the teacher is saying, Just out oof stubbornness, you’re ruining the experience for everyone else.

I once attended and paid for a workshop given by Warren Hill. It was on Japanese Black Pines. I had brought a great piece of material that would have made a very nice informal upright tree.

During the workshop, he told me that yes, it would make a nice informL upright, but he challenged me to think of a different design. So, I came up with a slant. He said, no, try again. Eventually, he forced me into a “two line semi-cascade”. Actually, it was more of a windswept. It required me to remove 2/3 of the foliage. It lived, but I always hated it.

The class was in October, late October. He had everyone decandle their pines! He said it was the right time to do it! I didn’t decandle mine. I didn’t argue, I just didn’t do it. Next,the class was supposed to teach wiring. Well, I wasthe only one who brought copper wire. He tooksome of my 8 gauge copper, cut a piece off about 6 inches long. Then cut each end so that the wire was sharp. Then went to a tree, and grabbed a branch, pushed it down, and then jabbed one end of the piece of copper into the branch, then positioned the other end into the trunk. So that it propped the branch down. He said, “there you go! That’s all you ever need to do!”

I didn’t start a fight, it was his workshop, other than cutting the tree and styling it his way, I just refused to do the things he said. (If I had heard his wiring and decandling advice first, I would have known he was off his rocker, and I wouldn’t have cut the tree! I thought he had some brilliant idea that I wax too stupid to see, so I let him guide me. Mud-guide me as it turned out.)

This was Warren Hill. He used to be the curator of the National Collection that @rockm is so proud of. And he also allowed many other important pieces decline in health. Not because they were under funded by Congress, by sheer incompetence.

This is the point of many of our questions of established bonsai. We want to know why so that we can appropriately use the knowledge beyond a specific tree. @SU2 just wanted to know when there could be exceptions. He didn’t want an argument just wondering what the limited circumstances were that might bypass this rule. I like this approach to questions. If you defend it just because or because everyone else does it then that’s not a defense. The fact that it usually causes a more welcoming presence, usually makes the tree more attractive is useful but not what the question was. OP wanted to know when it was ok to break the rule. There are most likely other times besides upright and broom, and I’m not knowledgeable enough to list them. I think if you have a tree that you want viewed from all sides forward lean would be a bad idea. Other exceptions? I don’t know. That’s what he’s looking for though. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Trenthany]

Well, if you are a participant in a workshop, and constantly refute what the teacher is saying, Just out oof stubbornness, you’re ruining the experience for everyone else.

I once attended and paid for a workshop given by Warren Hill. It was on Japanese Black Pines. I had brought a great piece of material that would have made a very nice informal upright tree.

During the workshop, he told me that yes, it would make a nice informL upright, but he challenged me to think of a different design. So, I came up with a slant. He said, no, try again. Eventually, he forced me into a “two line semi-cascade”. Actually, it was more of a windswept. It required me to remove 2/3 of the foliage. It lived, but I always hated it.

The class was in October, late October. He had everyone decandle their pines! He said it was the right time to do it! I didn’t decandle mine. I didn’t argue, I just didn’t do it. Next,the class was supposed to teach wiring. Well, I wasthe only one who brought copper wire. He tooksome of my 8 gauge copper, cut a piece off about 6 inches long. Then cut each end so that the wire was sharp. Then went to a tree, and grabbed a branch, pushed it down, and then jabbed one end of the piece of copper into the branch, then positioned the other end into the trunk. So that it propped the branch down. He said, “there you go! That’s all you ever need to do!”

I didn’t start a fight, it was his workshop, other than cutting the tree and styling it his way, I just refused to do the things he said. (If I had heard his wiring and decandling advice first, I would have known he was off his rocker, and I wouldn’t have cut the tree! I thought he had some brilliant idea that I wax too stupid to see, so I let him guide me. Mud-guide me as it turned out.)

This was Warren Hill. He used to be the curator of the National Collection that @rockm is so proud of. And he also allowed many other important pieces decline in health. Not because they were under funded by Congress, by sheer incompetence.

This is the point of many of our questions of established bonsai. We want to know why so that we can appropriately use the knowledge beyond a specific tree. @SU2 just wanted to know when there could be exceptions. He didn’t want an argument just wondering what the limited circumstances were that might bypass this rule. I like this approach to questions. If you defend it just because or because everyone else does it then that’s not a defense. The fact that it usually causes a more welcoming presence, usually makes the tree more attractive is useful but not what the question was. OP wanted to know when it was ok to break the rule. There are other times besides upright and broom, and I’m not knowledgeable enough to list them. I think if you have a tree that you want viewed from all sides forward lean would be a bad idea. Other exceptions? I don’t know. That’s why we’re asking! Did learn a lot this thread though!