What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?

[Trenthany]

When it works, if it works. Otherwise when you get tired of quasi master judges of shows continually telling you that you need to incline the tree toward the viewer. It is of course their oppinion and not doing so--- is your opinion, so who do you think is right and are you ready to resist the quasy judge show judge because of a principle you believe in? How far do you hope to advance in the world of bonsai, shows, demonstrations and programs? I go to shows now and find that I cannot take a workshop because most of the treachers don't want me in the workshop. They think I will challeng their position on everything.

I don’t challenge everything but I do wonder about it all.

 

[Adair M]

This is the point of many of our questions of established bonsai. We want to know why so that we can appropriately use the knowledge beyond a specific tree. @SU2 just wanted to know when there could be exceptions. He didn’t want an argument just wondering what the limited circumstances were that might bypass this rule. I like this approach to questions. If you defend it just because or because everyone else does it then that’s not a defense. The fact that it usually causes a more welcoming presence, usually makes the tree more attractive is useful but not what the question was. OP wanted to know when it was ok to break the rule. There are other times besides upright and broom, and I’m not knowledgeable enough to list them. I think if you have a tree that you want viewed from all sides forward lean would be a bad idea. Other exceptions? I don’t know. That’s why we’re asking! Did learn a lot this thread though!

Well, if you want a very simple “guideline”, then all trees should lean forward except formal uprights and brooms.

 

[leatherback]

Naka’s Goshin, for example, was allowed to get way overgrown. Hopefully, the situation is better now.

I am sad to say, half a year ago I was there and I was not impressed by it, and thought it needed a skilled expert to spend 2 days on it bring it back to its former glory.

 

[Trenthany]

Well, if you want a very simple “guideline”, then all trees should lean forward except formal uprights and brooms.

There has to be more than two lol! Not picking the fight but out of all generally upright trees (can’t use cascades really.) there is no trees but those 2 that shouldn’t lean forward?

 

[leatherback]

There has to be more than two lol! Not picking the fight but out of all generally upright trees (can’t use cascades really.) there is no trees but those 2 that shouldn’t lean forward?

Why are you so obsessed with this?
Get your trees. Put them the wrong way around. Look and decide whether you like the result. Done.

 

[rockm]

Well, if you are a participant in a workshop, and constantly refute what the teacher is saying, Just out oof stubbornness, you’re ruining the experience for everyone else.

I once attended and paid for a workshop given by Warren Hill. It was on Japanese Black Pines. I had brought a great piece of material that would have made a very nice informal upright tree.

During the workshop, he told me that yes, it would make a nice informL upright, but he challenged me to think of a different design. So, I came up with a slant. He said, no, try again. Eventually, he forced me into a “two line semi-cascade”. Actually, it was more of a windswept. It required me to remove 2/3 of the foliage. It lived, but I always hated it.

The class was in October, late October. He had everyone decandle their pines! He said it was the right time to do it! I didn’t decandle mine. I didn’t argue, I just didn’t do it. Next,the class was supposed to teach wiring. Well, I wasthe only one who brought copper wire. He tooksome of my 8 gauge copper, cut a piece off about 6 inches long. Then cut each end so that the wire was sharp. Then went to a tree, and grabbed a branch, pushed it down, and then jabbed one end of the piece of copper into the branch, then positioned the other end into the trunk. So that it propped the branch down. He said, “there you go! That’s all you ever need to do!”

I didn’t start a fight, it was his workshop, other than cutting the tree and styling it his way, I just refused to do the things he said. (If I had heard his wiring and decandling advice first, I would have known he was off his rocker, and I wouldn’t have cut the tree! I thought he had some brilliant idea that I wax too stupid to see, so I let him guide me. Mud-guide me as it turned out.)

This was Warren Hill. He used to be the curator of the National Collection that @rockm is so proud of. And he also allowed many other important pieces decline in health. Not because they were under funded by Congress, by sheer incompetence.

Warren Hill was also curator 20 years ago...but if you're going to trash the dead--at least do it fairly-- back then bonsai in the U.S. was not what is today.

Soils and care back then were not up to today's standards--"soilless" soils were only being pioneered... "schools" of Japanese trained bonsai masters were pretty rare. Specific care --which in many cases had to be adapted for trees from many different climates--was only being understood. The "decline" you accuse him of fostering was not isolated to the collection. For instance, many people were learning how to care for newly adapted species such as California juniper and killing them, same for Ponderosa pine.

Was he the greatest curator to run the place? No. He wasn't. All those trees that you're so outraged about have long since recovered.

and as for the budgeting thing. Yeah, it plays a role, which is why the arb is run by a Section 501 (c) 3 organization which helps with funding and management.

Have you ever been to the museum? or helped out with a donation?

 

[Adair M]

There has to be more than two lol! Not picking the fight but out of all generally upright trees (can’t use cascades really.) there is no trees but those 2 that shouldn’t lean forward?

No.

Formal Upright is arrow straight by definition. Broom is a sub-category of formal uprights.

 

[Trenthany]

Why are you so obsessed with this?
Get your trees. Put them the wrong way around. Look and decide whether you like the result. Done.

I’m trying to understand why only two styles of tree are centered. I’m trying to look at hinges with an open mind.

 

[Adair M]

I’m trying to understand why only two styles of tree are centered. I’m trying to look at hinges with an open mind.

FU is straight up by definition.

All the other styles have their apexes move towards the front because it makes them look better than if they move away.

This concept is called “foreshortening”.

Ut’s something we perceive with our eyes on 3 dimensional objects.

It has no effect on photographs because they are not 3 dimensional.

 

[Smoke]

FU is straight up by definition.

All the other styles have their apexes move towards the front because it makes them look better than if they move away.

This concept is called “foreshortening”.

Ut’s something we perceive with our eyes on 3 dimensional objects.

It has no effect on photographs because they are not 3 dimensional.

Curious, what is the difference between formal upright and all other styles that makes a formal upright look proper without tilting the tree's apex towards the viewer? Would not a formal upright not also benefit from a forward tilt if that is a steadfast rule? When leaning forward what is being foreshortened from view? Trunk? Why does the lean have to extend beyond the pot? Why couldn't the trunk lean back some to counter the forward lean of the trunk? Who is the arbitrator of just how much is correct and how much just looks stupid?

One last edit: In all my reading, 36 years, and all my workshops, numerous with people even as Shinji Susuki, the formal upright has been a straight up tree. But as I remember an informal upright was the same as a formal upright, with just turns and movement in the trunk, and with the apex finishing over the root ball. I have never read anything that talks about , nor heard in a workshop, that an informal upright's apex must finish forward of the root ball, in essence now making it a slant from that side view?

 

[Adair M]

Curious, what is the difference between formal upright and all other styles that makes a formal upright look proper without tilting the tree's apex towards the viewer? Would not a formal upright not also benefit from a forward tilt if that is a steadfast rule? When leaning forward what is being foreshortened from view? Trunk? Why does the lean have to extend beyond the pot? Why couldn't the trunk lean back some to counter the forward lean of the trunk? Who is the arbitrator of just how much is correct and how much just looks stupid?

One last edit: In all my reading, 36 years, and all my workshops, numerous with people even as Shinji Susuki, the formal upright has been a straight up tree. But as I remember an informal upright was the same as a formal upright, with just turns and movement in the trunk, and with the apex finishing over the root ball. I have never read anything that talks about , nor heard in a workshop, that an informal upright's apex must finish forward of the root ball, in essence now making it a slant from that side view?

FU’s are “by definition” straight up vertical. Like a Christmas tree. They do have a “front” where a parting of the foliage allows a view of the trunk. (Unlike a Christmas tree.)

A tree that when viewed from the front appears straight, but when viewed from the side is “almost” an FU, but because it has that forward lean, it doesn’t fit the “definition“ exactly.

I have two JBP that both appear to be FUs. This one:



... is nearly perfect. It does have a very small wiggle in the top apex, and because at one time a branch was turned up to continue the trunk line, it has a very slight forward lean in the apex area. Not enough to knock it out of the FU category, it’s more of a “fault”.

Thtree, however, leans forward considerably:




The whole trunk has a curve, so that the apex, while still centered over the nebari when viewed from the front, would be over the soil in front of the nebari. Oh, my photography is poor! The tree doesn’t leN slightly to the right, I didn’t hold my iPhone straight when I snPoed the pic! Lol!!

<By the way, @Smoke, I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say it “must be beyond the rim”.>

So, since this one does not have a straight trunk (it has a continuous curve), I would not classify it as a FU. It looks like one from the front, but it’s not.

I search my photo archives for some side shots, but alas, I was unable to find them.

Just because it doesn’t meet the definition of an FU doesn’t mean it’s not a nice bonsai, however.

 

[Smoke]

Lot of FU's in this post!!

<By the way, @Smoke, I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say it “must be beyond the rim”.>

This is what I said: "Why does the lean have to extend beyond the pot? Why couldn't the trunk lean back some to counter the forward lean of the trunk?

This is what you said on page two. emphasis mine.

Once again, you can see that the apex is forward of the nebari, but just inside the rim of the pot.

In this example could not the tree be leaned back...say...10 degrees or more and still be a good tree. Does it need this over emphasized lean to be a good tree? To me it just looks silly. In fact for me, I prefer this side view and calling it a slanting tree rather than the front view. But, it is not my tree and I don't have to look at the leaning tower of tree. I have a few that project, but it is because the apex continues to be placed at the very front of the apex of the canopy on every styling. At some point I just cut them back and start a new apex rather that letting it look like a big triangle sticking out there.

 

[Adair M]

Lot of FU's in this post!!



This is what I said: "Why does the lean have to extend beyond the pot? Why couldn't the trunk lean back some to counter the forward lean of the trunk?

This is what you said on page two. emphasis mine.



In this example could not the tree be leaned back...say...10 degrees or more and still be a good tree. Does it need this over emphasized lean to be a good tree? To me it just looks silly. In fact for me, I prefer this side view and calling it a slanting tree rather than the front view. But, it is not my tree and I don't have to look at the leaning tower of tree. I have a few that project, but it is because the apex continues to be placed at the very front of the apex of the canopy on every styling. At some point I just cut them back and start a new apex rather that letting it look like a big triangle sticking out there.

View attachment 316020

That’s an old picture, in a training pot. But, even then, the apex (defined as the highest point of the three) is over the front of the nebari, not last the front rim. Sure, some branches extend beyond the front of the Rim, but not the apex.

Here are some more recent pictures of that tree:

At the Winter Silohette show in December:





At the Knoxville show:



And in my back yard:




And a side shot in my back yard:



The apex is currently is over the inside rim of the pot.

 

[Trenthany]

I feel like you guys feel attacked and that we are trying to say we dislike forward lean. That’s not the case in my perspective. I’m just curious about how strict this seems. I understand how foreshortening works and why it makes trees look great from that angle. I’m not saying it should be stopped. I’m just surprised there are only two. I feel the horse has been beaten enough though. It just bugs me. I feel like there is something I’m missing. Maybe it’s not seeing enough bonsai yet IRL. I know most of you have seen millions in the years y’all have been doing it but I am only the hundreds. Lol. Millions of pics though. But you’re absolutely right about it not being the same.

 

[Adair M]

I feel like you guys feel attacked and that we are trying to say we dislike forward lean. That’s not the case in my perspective. I’m just curious about how strict this seems. I understand how foreshortening works and why it makes trees look great from that angle. I’m not saying it should be stopped. I’m just surprised there are only two. I feel the horse has been beaten enough though. It just bugs me. I feel like there is something I’m missing. Maybe it’s not seeing enough bonsai yet IRL. I know most of you have seen millions in the years y’all have been doing it but I am only the hundreds. Lol. Millions of pics though. But you’re absolutely right about it not being the same.

It’s not a rule. It’s just that trees styled with the apex moving forward “just look good”.

None of the bonsai “rules” were made up to be “rules”. They are based upon observation of trees that “look good”. Patterns were noticed. And noted.

So treat the “rules” as suggestions.

The definition of FU as having a straight trunk with no movement is it’s definition. It’s the most rigid of the styles. And while it seems easy, the strictness of the desired characteristics makes it actually one of the hardest to achieve.

As it happens, I DO own a tree that is not a FU and the apex does not move to the front, nor does it move to the rear. Perfectly off to the side. The tree has equally good front and back, and once styled, I intend to try to maintain it so that it could be shown either way. This is very unusual.

This is an Ezo Spruce:




It really can go either way equally well. I plan to elevate it a bit so that it will be a bit more upright. I also plan to plant it on a slab. I’m on the lookout for one.

But, this is the exception to the forward lean rule. So, if you were looking for special cases where the rule needn’t apply, this is one. Generally speaking, however, trees look better when they lean toward the viewer.

 

[0soyoung]

I feel like you guys feel attacked and that we are trying to say we dislike forward lean. That’s not the case in my perspective. I’m just curious about how strict this seems. I understand how foreshortening works and why it makes trees look great from that angle. I’m not saying it should be stopped. I’m just surprised there are only two. I feel the horse has been beaten enough though. It just bugs me. I feel like there is something I’m missing. Maybe it’s not seeing enough bonsai yet IRL. I know most of you have seen millions in the years y’all have been doing it but I am only the hundreds. Lol. Millions of pics though. But you’re absolutely right about it not being the same.

Think back when you were a little boy - your me ma called your name.

You saw her bending over with open arms --> you joyfully ran to her.
OR
You saw her standing up, hands at her side, or maybe even up in the air or straight out --> you ran because you knew you were in trouble and likely going to get a spanking.

What are you going to do to make your tree look friendly/inviting/happy to see you = what makes that tree smile back at you?


You walk in the front door. You see a doorway. You see a staircase coming down toward you. Do you feel that you are (maybe) welcome to come upstairs? What if the stairway goes away from you, going up from the other side of the entryway? What if the stairway simply goes down across the far end of the room?

What are you going to do to make your cascade bonsai look friendly/inviting/happy?


You see the lady's bare back and derriere. She's just bathed and has a towel over the front of herself, away from you. She's likely screaming in terror at the sight of you if she's looking away. On the other hand, if her head is turned and looking at you, she's friend'y/inviting/happy to see you.

What are you going to do with you tree that has a strong feature you want to display, but the trunk is moving away in this view?


The 'rules' are simple things from sculpture that are 'rules' simply to help dolts like us able to hack away at making art. Certain things (almost) always work. Those are the rules. I want my trees to smile back at me (some day). Hence I am focused on making them appear to be friendly. I always look for a branch 1 and a branch 2 and something in back that give it depth (i.e., makes it appear 3 dimensional) and if that isn't possible a nice foliar stairway to heaven can do amazing things.

I found Francois Jeker's book very helpful. Maybe another, such as David DeGroot's or John Naka's is more helpful for you.

 

[Trenthany]

It’s not a rule. It’s just that trees styled with the apex moving forward “just look good”.

None of the bonsai “rules” were made up to be “rules”. They are based upon observation of trees that “look good”. Patterns were noticed. And noted.

So treat the “rules” as suggestions.

The definition of FU as having a straight trunk with no movement is it’s definition. It’s the most rigid of the styles. And while it seems easy, the strictness of the desired characteristics makes it actually one of the hardest to achieve.

As it happens, I DO own a tree that is not a FU and the apex does not move to the front, nor does it move to the rear. Perfectly off to the side. The tree has equally good front and back, and once styled, I intend to try to maintain it so that it could be shown either way. This is very unusual.

This is an Ezo Spruce:


View attachment 316073
View attachment 316074
It really can go either way equally well. I plan to elevate it a bit so that it will be a bit more upright. I also plan to plant it on a slab. I’m on the lookout for one.

But, this is the exception to the forward lean rule. So, if you were looking for special cases where the rule needn’t apply, this is one. Generally speaking, however, trees look better when they lean toward the viewer.

This is exactly what OP was asking about. Occasional exceptions and why they exist, or perhaps their in their words when those exceptions are acceptable. They’re wondering about the flukes like your Ezo and why it is a fluke/doesn’t need to follow the rules to actually look good. Understanding why it’s broken that 1 in 1000 times might be the key to understanding how it implement it with more refinement than your average grower for them. Or it might just be making them crazy like me. I want to hear more about that tree and why! Lmao.

On a more useful note what kind of slab are you thinking?

 

[Trenthany]

Think back when you were a little boy - your me ma called your name.

You saw her bending over with open arms --> you joyfully ran to her.
OR
You saw her standing up, hands at her side, or maybe even up in the air or straight out --> you ran because you knew you were in trouble and likely going to get a spanking.

What are you going to do to make your tree look friendly/inviting/happy to see you = what makes that tree smile back at you?


You walk in the front door. You see a doorway. You see a staircase coming down toward you. Do you feel that you are (maybe) welcome to come upstairs? What if the stairway goes away from you, going up from the other side of the entryway? What if the stairway simply goes down across the far end of the room?

What are you going to do to make your cascade bonsai look friendly/inviting/happy?


You see the lady's bare back and derriere. She's just bathed and has a towel over the front of herself, away from you. She's likely screaming in terror at the sight of you if she's looking away. On the other hand, if her head is turned and looking at you, she's friend'y/inviting/happy to see you.

What are you going to do with you tree that has a strong feature you want to display, but the trunk is moving away in this view?


The 'rules' are simple things from sculpture that are 'rules' simply to help dolts like us able to hack away at making art. Certain things (almost) always work. Those are the rules. I want my trees to smile back at me (some day). Hence I am focused on making them appear to be friendly. I always look for a branch 1 and a branch 2 and something in back that give it depth (i.e., makes it appear 3 dimensional) and if that isn't possible a nice foliar stairway to heaven can do amazing things.

I found Francois Jeker's book very helpful. Maybe another, such as David DeGroot's or John Naka's is more helpful for you.

We understand how the artistic concepts work What we are curious about is why they can be broken sometimes. Dali for instance shattered the rules of art, and also obeyed them if that makes sense. I don’t plan I’m doing abstract/surreal trees. Wait... hmmm... maybe... no back on topic! But he was only able to smash them so profoundly because he knew exactly how to break every rule without destroying the beauty of his composition. He knew the exceptions and the rules and all of it inside and out. He learned and learned and learned and then took everything he learned stood it on end and spun it like a top to the amazement of everyone. We just want to understand the exceptions to this rule if that makes sense. Not just FU as keep getting mentioned which is part of the rule but others like Adair’s slant Ezo that is reversible. Why is it an exception? Is it dependent on that tree developing just right? Would it be more common in some trees than others? Maybe seedlings that grew into trees with great taper might be more likely to this than trees with lots of cuts?(this seems more rare than the exceptions we’re talking about, like unicorn level!) Or any other reasons that might cause an exception. Maybe it is totally subjective and a judgement call made for the tree when you start grooming. Because I have noticed very few people talk about deliberately leaning but they get it anyways, because it works. So my thought is that since it almost always works better leaning forward instinctively making the determination to not lean one forward would be the same way. Some thing you do because you feel the tree looks better with branches at x,y, and z. Which coincidentally gives that frontless tree. I doubt any sets out to break the rule is my current hypothesis. Therefore the reason this has been a dead horse beating is that you can’t enumerate why a tree breaks the rules. It’s just the tree you see in your mind. So it develops that way. That’s my current theory to toss out.

 

[Adair M]

We understand how the artistic concepts work What we are curious about is why they can be broken sometimes. Dali for instance shattered the rules of art, and also obeyed them if that makes sense. I don’t plan I’m doing abstract/surreal trees. Wait... hmmm... maybe... no back on topic! But he was only able to smash them so profoundly because he knew exactly how to break every rule without destroying the beauty of his composition. He knew the exceptions and the rules and all of it inside and out. He learned and learned and learned and then took everything he learned stood it on end and spun it like a top to the amazement of everyone. We just want to understand the exceptions to this rule if that makes sense. Not just FU as keep getting mentioned which is part of the rule but others like Adair’s slant Ezo that is reversible. Why is it an exception? Is it dependent on that tree developing just right? Would it be more common in some trees than others? Maybe seedlings that grew into trees with great taper might be more likely to this than trees with lots of cuts?(this seems more rare than the exceptions we’re talking about, like unicorn level!) Or any other reasons that might cause an exception. Maybe it is totally subjective and a judgement call made for the tree when you start grooming. Because I have noticed very few people talk about deliberately leaning but they get it anyways, because it works. So my thought is that since it almost always works better leaning forward instinctively making the determination to not lean one forward would be the same way. Some thing you do because you feel the tree looks better with branches at x,y, and z. Which coincidentally gives that frontless tree. I doubt any sets out to break the rule is my current hypothesis. Therefore the reason this has been a dead horse beating is that you can’t enumerate why a tree breaks the rules. It’s just the tree you see in your mind. So it develops that way. That’s my current theory to toss out.

wow... too much ado about nothing!

 

[Adair M]

If you look at Walter Pall’s “Ezo Spruce #2” thread, there are lots of images of his tree. Most of which are images tKen from the front. There is no evidence of any lean whatsoever.

Yet, when you look at the pictures taken from the side, the forward movement is quite pronounced. Surprising so, I might add! So, even in “naturalist” styling, the forward lean is effective in making a pleasing image, not just in the more conventional Japanese styling.