Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
What is snowflake?
What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of "angle the tree toward the viewer"?
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Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Oh! You mean little pansy trees? Like these?
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Like others here, you seem to have some kind of burr under your saddle about a lot of things that you perceive as being somehow "forced" on you. Use the technique, don't use it. Whatever. Claim some kind of ridiculous "victory" over bonsai oppression of maverick thinking --oy....Yeah, the same techniques that work visually for statues (The Pieta (which is meant to be viewed in much the same "front on" manner as bonsai), about 100,000 others).
OF COURSE You can design a tree without an overly leaning apex, you can also design a tree with no lean. Whatever.
Judging all this from only your computer screen is NOT reality...the technique does have the impact I think it does. That is why I keep coming back to this dimwitted miserable argument about the blindingly obvious. Instead of arguing over pixels (and I have no idea if you've been to exhibits beyond the National or regional--if you have, great), take a stroll through a place that has a lot of established trees with long histories. If you do that, you notice things about some of the most notable bonsai. I can tell you that the majority of the Japanese trees in the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum use this technique. Those trees tend to have more "presence" than some of the North American trees that don't use it. It's part of the package.
Look, not all trees --even older ones--use this. It largely depends on the tree and what the grower is trying to "say" with it.
for all your bluster about having an open mind, you sure have slammed it shut here...Arguing it doesn't work just because you think its a fake useless tradition is kind of shortsighted and illogical.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Why are we arguing? The OP question was "What cases / when is it right, aesthetically-speaking, to ignore the rule of 'angle the tree toward the viewer'?". The OP acknowledged the whole spectrum and just ask for how to make the judgement call. We wound up swinging for opposite fences. Instead of helping newbies like me to discern, all I see are the same arguments repeated with more emphasis.
In the past week I watched 34 episodes of the Bonsai Art of Japan and paid special attention to this question. I saw repeated comments about bringing the apex to the viewers and plenty of trees with forward lean. However, I have also seen many without and they are not all formal uprights either. What I would love to see are post them experienced and knowledgeable ones among us to post thoughts about when we do and when we don't on tough subjects.
Peace to all and thank you for expressing your passion. I still learn a lot from these posts, contentious though they were.
In the past week I watched 34 episodes of the Bonsai Art of Japan and paid special attention to this question. I saw repeated comments about bringing the apex to the viewers and plenty of trees with forward lean. However, I have also seen many without and they are not all formal uprights either. What I would love to see are post them experienced and knowledgeable ones among us to post thoughts about when we do and when we don't on tough subjects.
Peace to all and thank you for expressing your passion. I still learn a lot from these posts, contentious though they were.
BackyardBonsai
Shohin
CJR - You are the most open minded person I know on this forum! Soak everything up.
D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
yes!
would also love to see our pros (@Adair M @rockm ) post pictures of great trees that lack this forward lean (like you said, there are many), and argue or demonstrate how these specific trees would be improved with a forward lean.
i understand that this is harder to do here on the forum than it is in person
If an already amazing tree could be improved with a forward lean, the question is, by how much would it be improved? For it seems there are many amazing trees out there that lack the forward lean - when you see these, does the lack of a forward lean strike anybody as a glaring offence?
Conversely, there are amazing trees that do have the forward lean. Would they be terrible trees without this lean?
if we are honest with ourselves, I think that most of us here do not intend to compete at the highest level, but we do want to be aware of the best practices and methods. In 30-40 years from now if the tree that my little maple seedling has become lacks a forward lean, will it matter to me or anybody else? If it has the lean, will it matter? If I'm lucky the tree will get as far as nationals. based on the photos of the rows of trees I have seen, the entry criteria for nationals doesn't require the lean; some had it, some didn't. but they were all beautiful
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Some of my trees have it. Others don't. Like I said. A lot depends on what the owner intends and the actual trunk you're starting with. Incorporating this with collected trees is particularly difficult, since older trunks don't want to cooperate very much with your plans.yes!
would also love to see our pros (@Adair M @rockm ) post pictures of great trees that lack this forward lean (like you said, there are many), and argue or demonstrate how these specific trees would be improved with a forward lean.
i understand that this is harder to do here on the forum than it is in person
If an already amazing tree could be improved with a forward lean, the question is, by how much would it be improved? For it seems there are many amazing trees out there that lack the forward lean - when you see these, does the lack of a forward lean strike anybody as a glaring offence?
Conversely, there are amazing trees that do have the forward lean. Would they be terrible trees without this lean?
if we are honest with ourselves, I think that most of us here do not intend to compete at the highest level, but we do want to be aware of the best practices and methods. In 30-40 years from now if the tree that my little maple seedling has become lacks a forward lean, will it matter to me or anybody else? If it has the lean, will it matter? If I'm lucky the tree will get as far as nationals. based on the photos of the rows of trees I have seen, the entry criteria for nationals doesn't require the lean; some had it, some didn't. but they were all beautiful
This oak has a pronounced forward lean and one of the reasons it was collected. The lean forward brings you into the front branching a bit and focuses the view on the mid-trunk spiral. I don't have a straight on side shot, though
Derek,yes!
would also love to see our pros (@Adair M @rockm ) post pictures of great trees that lack this forward lean (like you said, there are many), and argue or demonstrate how these specific trees would be improved with a forward lean.
i understand that this is harder to do here on the forum than it is in person
If an already amazing tree could be improved with a forward lean, the question is, by how much would it be improved? For it seems there are many amazing trees out there that lack the forward lean - when you see these, does the lack of a forward lean strike anybody as a glaring offence?
Conversely, there are amazing trees that do have the forward lean. Would they be terrible trees without this lean?
if we are honest with ourselves, I think that most of us here do not intend to compete at the highest level, but we do want to be aware of the best practices and methods. In 30-40 years from now if the tree that my little maple seedling has become lacks a forward lean, will it matter to me or anybody else? If it has the lean, will it matter? If I'm lucky the tree will get as far as nationals. based on the photos of the rows of trees I have seen, the entry criteria for nationals doesn't require the lean; some had it, some didn't. but they were all beautiful
Pretty much all my trees have a forward lean. (Except FU and broom). It’s one of those things I look for when selecting trees.
The first thing I check is the nebari and lower trunk, and then the apex or potential apex to see if the tree “moves correctly”. If it moves away, I’ll check to see if the “back side” can be used as the front.
If not, I’ll pass!
To me, the moving forward thing is one of the key selection criteria I use when purchasing trees or stock to work on. Why buy a problem that I’m going to have to fix? I won’t unless the tree is something so spectacular about the tree that makes it worth the effort of growing a new apex.
Such as this:
And, actually, the live vein DOES come forward!
So, I’m grafting all new foliage anyway, I can put the apex anywhere I want it!
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Nope, no burr under my saddle. But as I've told you before, when you (or others, I don't care who) make sweeping generalizations and speak in absolutes (word of god, remember?) I'm likely to
challenge it. If that means I have a "burr under my saddle" in your opinion, fine. I don't really care about your opinion!
This is your go to move on the forum, demean the person you disagree with, add in your cute little pet mocking phrases.
No one has really shown that it makes a significant difference at these scales, but whatever. Lots of people think vaccines cause autism but they don't; people believing
things that cannot be proven is a common issue.
Obviously you've gotten past the point where you can argue in a logical and rational manner, thus resorting to the demeaning comments again. Typical.
I have not been to Japan and probably won't ever go there, don't really have the desire. Have been to the National Museum but it was years ago before I was into bonsai.
The fact that many of those trees with "presence" lean forward is great, but it doesn't prove that the reason they have "presence" is the lean or that it even contibutes. It just
proves that...the trees lean. Those trees have presence for many reasons, their sheer age in many cases being a major part of it.
Actually, that's another faulty conclusion. I'm not telling people not to lean their trees forward, I really don't care if they do. I'm just questioning the reasons for why it's done
and why it's recommended. So far the reasons I've been given seem to come up short. And actually, I really don't have an issue with a small amount of lean like in the last tree
Adair posted (or one of the last ones), not convinced it really helps the illusion but at least it's not offensive or ugly from other views. However, there are many trees out there that
have so much lean that they look stupid from anything other than the exact front. Maybe that's OK in your eyes and even for many bonsai practitioners and that's great. But it's not
what I want out of the trees I'm working on.
I won't respond to any more of your posts on this thread - send me a PM if you want to continue the "discussion".
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Why do I get the feeling your issue isn't really with the lean, but with me...
D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
@coh while I don't agree with everything that's been said or the way it's been said, I don't think that this is up for debate. look up Ricoeur, Merleau-Ponty, and more recently the late Burt Dreyfus and Sean Dorrance Kelly have done a ton of work on perception and the perception of art. In particular, look up 'perceptual normativity'
it makes perfect sense that things whose top-most portion lean forward would contribute to a greater perceived presence.
consider what crown molding does to a wall
compare the angry parent leaning over their shorter child
think about what happens when a police officer leans over the table to speak to the witness
etc.
in each example 'presence' is what is added, literally by virtue of proximity to your eyes in relation to the rest of the object (the fact that in some circumstance this greater presence is associated with authority is negligible for the current discussion. it's merely a social ramification).
we even use the colloquial phrase 'lean in' as a metaphor for taking a stance and making one's presence felt. sheryl sandberg wrote an entire book on how women should 'lean in' as men do in leadership positions, literally to make their presence felt
edit: that said, i think not all bonsai trees need to lean forward to be beautiful trees. In fact, one of my favorite trees leans backwards...
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
The lack of a lean isn't a glaring error. It's have NEVER been a REQUIREMENT for anything. It is not really so much of a 'best practice' as it is an enhancement or technique that can emphasize a trunk or tree's overall appearance. It's a trick, as are most bonsai practices (trunk chop, defoliation, etc.). Bonsai is visual sleight of hand that uses a variety of techniques. This is one...yes!
would also love to see our pros (@Adair M @rockm ) post pictures of great trees that lack this forward lean (like you said, there are many), and argue or demonstrate how these specific trees would be improved with a forward lean.
i understand that this is harder to do here on the forum than it is in person
If an already amazing tree could be improved with a forward lean, the question is, by how much would it be improved? For it seems there are many amazing trees out there that lack the forward lean - when you see these, does the lack of a forward lean strike anybody as a glaring offence?
Conversely, there are amazing trees that do have the forward lean. Would they be terrible trees without this lean?
if we are honest with ourselves, I think that most of us here do not intend to compete at the highest level, but we do want to be aware of the best practices and methods. In 30-40 years from now if the tree that my little maple seedling has become lacks a forward lean, will it matter to me or anybody else? If it has the lean, will it matter? If I'm lucky the tree will get as far as nationals. based on the photos of the rows of trees I have seen, the entry criteria for nationals doesn't require the lean; some had it, some didn't. but they were all beautiful
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
It seems to me that in this discussion we forget a really important point: The forward leaning effect is ONLY happening if you are in formt of the tree in person. it is a three dimensional effect. On photographs this does not exist and cannot be appreciated.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I agree, which is why I find it kind of irritating when people who haven't really seen the trees they're discussing in person and primarily in photos complain those trees look "silly"
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Derek, thanks for a thoughtful post without any condescending remarks or personal attacks. See @rockm, it can be done.
Several of the examples you listed (crown molding, angry parent, police office) are cases where the actor is actually leaning over the viewer, or above the viewer in the case
of crown molding. Very few bonsai are large enough or displayed high enough for that to be the case so I'm not sure those examples are relevant.
I will look up "perceptual normativity" as I'm not familiar with the term.
I just want to reiterate for those who may be unclear. I'm not denying the existence of forced perspective, I'm just questioning whether the impact
is as great as people believe and whether the desired effect could be achieved by other means. A little bit of lean, fine if it makes you happy. Too much,
I don't like but to each his own. I just hope people think about what they are doing rather than just doing it "because it's the rules" or "because all trees
are that way" or because some self professed internet expert said it should be so.
I hereby retire from this thread.
D
Deleted member 21616
Guest
@coh there is no need to declare retirement from this thread - it's a profitable discussion for everyone i'm sure
you're thinking about this spatially, as opposed to aesthetically, psychologically, or cognitively.
in the ordinary course of things the visual stimuli are processed non-consciously. you're trying to formalize the discussion of something that resists formalization
even a 2-inch tall cartoon mouse standing on its back legs, leaning forward, is perceived as conveying greater 'presence' than it otherwise would. and presence too, is not a spatial concept. it's something that is 'felt', so to speak
the concept pervades intentional design (architecture) as much as it does our socially-oriented biological underpinnings
we had a similar discussion recently when Walter Pall put a tree in a red pot. Red is perceived in a particular way by humans (and many other animals) - but don't bother trying to explain why, because it can't be done!
you're thinking about this spatially, as opposed to aesthetically, psychologically, or cognitively.
in the ordinary course of things the visual stimuli are processed non-consciously. you're trying to formalize the discussion of something that resists formalization
even a 2-inch tall cartoon mouse standing on its back legs, leaning forward, is perceived as conveying greater 'presence' than it otherwise would. and presence too, is not a spatial concept. it's something that is 'felt', so to speak
the concept pervades intentional design (architecture) as much as it does our socially-oriented biological underpinnings
we had a similar discussion recently when Walter Pall put a tree in a red pot. Red is perceived in a particular way by humans (and many other animals) - but don't bother trying to explain why, because it can't be done!
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
How are red flowers viewed? Dangerous? "Warning! Warning, Will Robinson... omnivorous poisonous aggressor roses...
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
But we like red leaves, red flowers, red fruit, red Ferrari, red brick, etc.
I have a couple of cheap red glazed pots, but far more in blue. The colors were just what was available at the time. So, Walter got me to wondering why red has fallen into disfavor. I've noted that ceramicists seem to be into reduction firings. I found Roy Minarai's comments a few weeks ago to be enlightening and to offer a possible explanation: maybe reds are gone because ceramicists are into reduction firing. So is it just the consequence of the latest kiln fad?
Reds are great with trees! So are purples that I almost never see.
Personally I love wood fired stuff, especially when the ash has actually turned glassy like a glaze - rarely ever see blue, though. The reds are delicious! But wood firing isn't something you can do in your back yard (in most cities, anyway). An electric kiln could be in your garage. A gas fired kiln could be on the patio with your BBQ. How much does this explain things, I wonder?
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
I dunno. I think I'm just beginning to understand why some people do both and possibly do one and then the other (bonsai and ceramics). At any rate, so much of what we humans (I include myself
) do is dictated by the fashion of the times. That's what Walter was railing about. The rest is just what I do (can't help myself).btw, I'm also a sucker for crystals in glazes - didn't mention that before.
Way off topic, but we are 'aesthetically speaking' about ignoring rules - right?
(wish it was mine, but its not, pot mostly, but tree too)
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