To argue, could you put your best foot forward to post?

[Paulpash]

Fantastic Potentilla, @Marie1uk !
Do you have any photos in bloom?

Unfortunately no as I have been more concerned with structure and increasing ramification. It's now off steroids (it grows like mad) because it's filled the pot with roots so this season will be at it's optimum flower wise. I will post a pic for you, OK?

I have to thank @Smoke because I do take far more photos of trees than I used to....

 

[Velodog2]

I didn't know the trees I've killed would be worth points someday! And I have a lot of points! In my defense I lived in the current house for probably 16 years before I learned that the well water was essentially poison to my trees due to off the chart high alkalinity levels. The year that was the tip off we had no rain for 6 wks straight and even tho I watered properly I'd lost over half my collection by the next spring. I now use collected rainwater and lose 0-2 trees per year.

But this thread has me thinking about the value of killing trees. If you do it by pushing the limits of your technique with healthy trees that counts as a learning experience, although it doesn't apply to me. What I got from it was the opportunity to do initial styling of many more trees than I would have otherwise. And select many more unstyled trees for purchase (and ultimate murder). So if I have a 'good eye' this extra experience is partly responsible. I'm also still overly cautious with how I treat my trees which probably holds back their development unfortunately.

 

[my nellie]

I understand very well what you say.
Most of my trees are growing in the same mode that you described for your Potentilla.

... ...so this season will be at it's optimum flower wise. I will post a pic for you, OK?... ...

Yes, please! I do love this plant but climate of my place is prohibitive. I have killed one...

 

[Paulpash]

I understand very well what you say.
Most of my trees are growing in the same mode that you described for your Potentilla.Yes, please! I do love this plant but climate of my place is prohibitive. I have killed one...

They drink like crazy so I would imagine keeping them hydrated would be a challenge in Greece.

 

[my nellie]

Exactly, Marie! Hot - very hot, dry summers, windy very often....

 

[Paulpash]

Is it better to be conservative and have a live tree that takes you a few years longer to develop or push the boundaries and learn that you really should have been more patient in the first place? Killing trees is as much about learning about yourself as it is about the tree you killed....

 

[ghues]

Very true @Marie1uk .....Killing trees for me taught me quickly the art of patience and that the health of the tree comes first and foremost.....I don't need an instant bonsai "at a boy" from the masses .......but yet we are so tempted. The death of my trees has significantly been reduced as I've gained more experience with the species I'm working on (reduction in that alone increased success) which I'm still reducing to the ones I've had the most success with. I find that having some ugly ducklings of the same species assists me with growing, repotting, wiring, fertilizing and designing techniques.... experience learned on these then goes into my more suitable candidates.
G

 

[Paulpash]

If you want to learn patience the best lesson is to get a raw pine or cedar and go and see how fast you can get it into a pot. It's roughly equivalent to the time it takes you to use it on your log burner.

 

[Anthony]

Patience is for cleaning toilets or other such tasks.

Growing Bonsai is a joy, and everyday there is something to observe and learn from.

Plus once you understand that the tree outgrows the design, why bother to rush ????????????????????

 

[ghues]

If you want to learn patience the best lesson is to get a raw pine or cedar and go and see how fast you can get it into a pot. It's roughly equivalent to the time it takes you to use it on your log burner.

Lost in translation - the majority of my trees are yamadori, some are 100's of years old, with character that only Mother Nature can provide.....so I don't rush them into a pot....

 

[ghues]

Patience is for cleaning toilets or other such tasks.

Growing Bonsai is a joy, and everyday there is something to observe and learn from.

Plus once you understand that the tree outgrows the design, why bother to rush ????????????????????

@Anthony ...... I do agree that even the most most basic of tasks can be a real joy....one can lose themselves, a quiet harmony, hearing the birds sing, the hummingbirds headed for a drink...........but I'm not sure that I actually practice Bonsai per se....but use Bonsai techniques to create garden creations.
This time of year for us in the PNW there are many things that have to be done in a short period of time.......so in order to get yamadori to live and thrive one has to have patience.........
Cheers G

 

[Anthony]

@ghues,

G,

just sharing.

I read on this list of an interesting - what looks like a fool proof - yammadori technique.

Leading a single root into a pocket of rich soil and leaving it to mature into a larger root
able to feed the entire tree. This allows complete removal, with great safety.

Will probably never use it as down here seeds and seedlings can reach 1 to 3 inches in a year,
or two or three in the open ground, or the grow troughs. Using a colander allows safe removal
of the plant, and we can normally train 6 or so branches in the grow trough.
The next 3 to 5 years are for branchlet refinement.
[ mame' to 15 / 18 inch tall or wide specimens ]

Most the time on the road side [ read drains ] is spent looking for new species, as seedlings
or chopped down weeds, as the road workers clear the areas.
As you might have noted, illusion of age is fine.

The technique of training is more akin to creating an oil painting.
A finished drawing is used to guide the tree's shape / design.
It is enjoyable from step 1.
Good Day
Anthony



Please excuse the background, my brother-in -law was having a serious Indian [ India ] moment.
From a cutting

 

[Vance Wood]

@ghues,

G,

just sharing.

I read on this list of an interesting - what looks like a fool proof - yammadori technique.

Leading a single root into a pocket of rich soil and leaving it to mature into a larger root
able to feed the entire tree. This allows complete removal, with great safety.

Will probably never use it as down here seeds and seedlings can reach 1 to 3 inches in a year,
or two or three in the open ground, or the grow troughs. Using a colander allows safe removal
of the plant, and we can normally train 6 or so branches in the grow trough.
The next 3 to 5 years are for branchlet refinement.
[ mame' to 15 / 18 inch tall or wide specimens ]

Most the time on the road side [ read drains ] is spent looking for new species, as seedlings
or chopped down weeds, as the road workers clear the areas.
As you might have noted, illusion of age is fine.

The technique of training is more akin to creating an oil painting.
A finished drawing is used to guide the tree's shape / design.
It is enjoyable from step 1.
Good Day
Anthony


View attachment 144308
Please excuse the background, my brother-in -law was having a serious Indian [ India ] moment.
From a cutting

View attachment 144309

You made the observation about a process of harvesting Yamadori: Leading a single root into a pocket of rich soil and leaving it to mature into a larger root able to feed the entire tree. This allows complete removal, with great safety. I have to disagree with this being a universal save all. It is true that this might work on some trees in some conditions but I have found that most people who sell this point have not really tried it. It is for the most part a fantasy that sounds good. The real issue in it is that most of the trees that are worth collecting are trees that have Sectored Architecture. Their roots and top growth are often specifically linked. Encouraging the strengthining of one root may or may not impact the whole tree in the way you believe.

You may have one section of the tree doing very well and the rest of the tree dying when you carelessly cut the rest of the roots too severely, thinking that the new roots you have in your possession will support the entire tree tree.

The entire issue boils down to knowing the specific biology of the material you are dealing with.

 

[Anthony]

I happily stand corrected Vance.
Bows.
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

You are not the first person that has bought into this process. I have seen it advertised in more than one bonsai book. Having tried it I was never able to get a tree to root into some fresh soil or find a root that I could redirect. Most Yamadori trees in my way of looking at things are found in the Mountains of the Western United States and are growing in what is called the High Planes desert. Create a pocket of fresh soil you are left with the problem of making sure the tree gets enough water and finding the tree again later when you want to remove it. Most of these trees if they responded to this treatment would take ten years or more to respond, if at all.

 

[Paulpash]

Lost in translation - the majority of my trees are yamadori, some are 100's of years old, with character that only Mother Nature can provide.....so I don't rush them into a pot....

Is the mountain in your avatar near where you live? If I won the lottery I would have 3 houses - one in the Rockies, another in the Alps and another in Kielder Forest, Northumberland. Bliss

 

[ghues]

Yes the mountain (Victoria Peak) on my Avatar, is on Vancouver Island, around 2100m or just over 7000' (3rd highest peak on the Island). I took the photo (working) on the way to the bottom of the mountain to evaluate and inspect our logging road access at the back end of the White River valley. It would take me less than 2 hours to drive there.
Cheers G.

Is the mountain in your avatar near where you live? If I won the lottery I would have 3 houses - one in the Rockies, another in the Alps and another in Kielder Forest, Northumberland. Bliss

 

[music~maker]

How many have you lost to poor winter protection/bad weather? I seem to remember you saying several things about that. I give my trees more winter protection than most would say is necessary, but have never had a winter related issue. Overly cautious? Not really- just doing what needs to be done to keep my trees happy.

I have done the work on my trees, and am not overly cautious. I am not saying I'm better than you or anyone else -NEVER did I say that I'm better. I am only stating that saying that I'm not as good as anyone else BECAUSE I have not killed more trees is ridiculous.

I have lost a number of very nice trees, but I'm not overly proud of this, and certainly don't use it as a measure of success.

I'm also a moderator on the same reddit forum as Jerry. Number of dead trees isn't really meant to be taken as a measure of success, but more an arbitrary indicator of experience. As in, the longer you've been doing bonsai, the more trees you've probably seen (and perhaps helped) die. It's not the only indicator, and perhaps not the best, but it's something.

It's not something we spend hours agonizing over either - as I said, it's arbitrary. There's probably been more discussion on it in this one thread than there has been in the past five years on this topic. =) The number of trees they own and the number of years of experience are probably far better indicators overall, tbh, and those are factored in as well.

The whole thing is very subjective, but it works wonders because you have some idea of the experience level of the folks providing advice. If two people give different advice, and one person's flair says "Beginner, 2 years, 1 tree" and the others says "Experienced, 25 years, 75 trees", you have a pretty good idea of who is providing the better advice. I've always taken the "dead trees" part of the equation with a grain of salt. Although in the past 20+ years, I have probably killed more trees than most people will own, so it does seem fairly accurate for me. Most of those were in the early days, but I do still lose some from time to time. But sure, not everyone is going to have the same death count for all kinds of reasons. That's why it's just one factor in the equation.

 

[Anthony]

Lots of experiments down here ---- new trees coming in once in while.
Seedlings and seeds. If they perish, it doesn't hurt too much.
You learn how to experiment and focus better.

Found a rich purple pea type flower, on a vine / shrub. Seedling show some
problem with normal soil. Might have to go alkaline.

Take a fully growing shrub, probably kill it.

Lots of tests.
Good Day
Anthony

G ------ big fantasy, our hills are only 900 m, but would love to cap one and live at the
top, you are so lucky.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I'm just gonna use this moment to post a pic of one of my tree's Originally started by Nick Lenz, neglected for some time, now it's mine and I'm just trying to do right by it. I didn't create it but I sure am enjoying it and putting a lot of work into it.


The second pic is a pic I just took

View attachment 143169 View attachment 143170

Since it came from @Don Blackmond ...I have a hard time seeing it lacked care under his belt so to speak. Though I'm sure he too did great by this tree while it honored his bench. That's the only hiccup I had with your comitary.