The "Rules" of bonsai

[Joe Dupre']

In my mind, if styling a bonsai is about rules, then you have no art, you have a craft. A craft can be taught, learned , practiced and improved. Art can not necessarily be taught. It can be encouraged, but the person must have some bit of innate creativity that CAN be encouraged.

(I've been away for a few days, so this post might be a bit out of sequence. :^ {

 

[sorce]

the "rules of bonsai" dont seem to be as cut and dry, but rather a bit more fluid.

As fluid as the tree itself.

The tree will never be static, that's how we should follow rules.

I would imagine....

A "World Class Tree" could spend a decade breaking one "rule", and another decade breaking a different "rule", all the while remaining a "World Class Tree".

Just some furthers.

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

@sorce

one wonders how many Masters read here, get ideas, but never admit, where it came from or
who thought it up.

One of the fun things about Forums, you can 'steal' so much, and so easily.

IBC early one had warnings about folk doing research for books.

So we whittle away at philosophies and get no pay ------- so stupid we amateur hobbyists.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

In my mind, if styling a bonsai is about rules, then you have no art, you have a craft. A craft can be taught, learned , practiced and improved. Art can not necessarily be taught. It can be encouraged, but the person must have some bit of innate creativity that CAN be encouraged.

(I've been away for a few days, so this post might be a bit out of sequence. :^ {

Bonsai is both craft and art.

Expertly wiring a tree is craft.

Positioning branches that have been wired is art.

 

[Djtommy]

In the hands of an artist every craft can become art.

 

[Anthony]

Just to be the Bug Bear.

Normal Folk love the idea of not studying and making a craft into Art.
Somehow I don't think saying Bonsai is Art over and over will make it into Art.

Bonsai will become Art when Trained Artists make it so and image it Holographically.

Otherwise where is the proof it ever was.

Just pissing in the wind is all you get.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[coh]

Some quotes from Katsuto Sakurai (International Bonsai 1989 #1)
''...curves in the tree trunks we encounter in nature have set rules. But amongst our bonsai we find trees which do not follow these rules. I find when we violate these rules in bonsai I feel no art, that there is not transport to an imaginary world, that they are worthless as art. There are principles and standards in art which we must adhere to. To ignore these principles and standards and merely endeavour to create something new will create distasteful bonsai.

I find this quote rather distasteful. It seems to describe the exact opposite of "art", and suggests there can never be any progress in "art" because everyone should always follow the existing principles and standards and never try anything new, since it will be "distasteful".

Very restrictive mindset.

 

[Random User]

@sorce

one wonders how many Masters read here, get ideas, but never admit, where it came from or
who thought it up.

One of the fun things about Forums, you can 'steal' so much, and so easily.

IBC early one had warnings about folk doing research for books.

So we whittle away at philosophies and get no pay ------- so stupid we amateur hobbyists.
Good Day
Anthony

Never before on a world wide stage, in any other era, and arguably with no other art form; would you have a single mode (the Internet) facilitating the coming together of such a variety of materials, crafts, arts, skills, philosophies, ideas, and Nature to allow the interaction of the beginner at the very earliest stages to Master of the Art all in one forum.It allows everyone to show and share the microcosm of the living world around them, virtually in "real time"... who is REALLY getting the most benefit from this technological advancement?

 

[Random User]

@coh,

It is the opinion of one man, at that point in time, with a vested interest in having the view that he is relaying... it doesn't mean that he is right, or that we all have to believe and follow his example.

 

[Djtommy]

Just to be the Bug Bear.

Normal Folk love the idea of not studying and making a craft into Art.
Somehow I don't think saying Bonsai is Art over and over will make it into Art.

Bonsai will become Art when Trained Artists make it so and image it Holographically.

Otherwise where is the proof it ever was.

Just pissing in the wind is all you get.
Good Day
Anthony

So what does "trained artist" mean to you?
Is a person like kimura an artist to you? What about ryan neil? Walter pall ?
Grtz

 

[coh]

@coh,

It is the opinion of one man, at that point in time, with a vested interest in having the view that he is relaying... it doesn't mean that he is right, or that we all have to believe and follow his example.

Really? That's not what everyone believes? Thanks for clearing that up

 

[Random User]

lol @coh

 

[Adair M]

So what does "trained artist" mean to you?
Is a person like kimura an artist to you? What about ryan neil? Walter pall ?
Grtz

And what does "image it Horographically" mean?

 

[JudyB]

Somehow I don't think saying Bonsai is Art over and over will make it into Art.

Bonsai will become Art when Trained Artists make it so and image it Holographically.

And you saying this over and over also will not make it true.

 

[coh]

lol @coh

Let's carry it a little further. These are all "one person's opinion", that's a given. But at the same time, depending on who says them...they can become "the law" or "the rules". Groupthink. People become afraid to express themselves and try new things.

The person who quoted that article also wrote:

Individualism and innovation is very important but there are some lines which just should not be crossed. The whole point of bonsai is in my opinion, not for self-expression and ego, but for the expression of the esteem for natural world...

What do people think of this? To me, it sounds like another very restrictive definition. Why are there lines that should not be crossed (and what are those lines and who decides)? If someone crosses one of those lines, what happens? If someone creates a bonsai that is considered "distasteful" to the majority, it simply won't get into a show.

 

[JudyB]

Wouldn't recognized a beech if it fell on me myself but I respect your point of view.

I think in part, this is why people see the issue so differently. People who grow up in differing areas of the country or world, have a different view on what trees look like to them.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

a hologram allows the Bonsai to "hang" as an oil painting does for all time.
So the efforts are not lost with time.
I believe this would be a more true idea of a Bonsai Museum.

Djtommy,
Sorry my opinion on who is an artist in Bonsai matters not.
History will decide that.

Judy, just waiting to see who makes the first step with the Hologram.
The technology is there and has been since the 80's.
If I keep repeating it maybe one of the younger folk will do it.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[0soyoung]

IMHO, art is about communicating emotionally, not logically. Declaring that there are lines that just should not be crossed makes artistic expression easy. An artist or artists will cross that line with a creation just to say 'fuck you'.

The hard thing for any artist to do is to stay within the comfort zone demarked by the rules and still have the work say something. Something discordant/unexpected must be in that composition, but in a subtle way, or you just have something pretty (or maybe worse).

 

[Anthony]

@JudyB
Okay ,Judy,

look at the image Oso put up. really beautiful.

Well let's say you like the image but not the thought of watering.
Okay you hologram it, you get to keep the tree, but sell the hologram.

Secondly, exhibitions - World Displays.
Holograms from all over to display and no Plant Quarantine horrors or shipping of trees etc.
You can look at Tropical, Sub-Tropical, Warm and Cool temperate and beyond.
Just by walking.

Using technology, we can make Bonsai more akin to travelling Art Exhibitions at the Met,
The Louvre or The National Gallery [ UK ] or ........................
What do you think.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JudyB]

@JudyB
Okay ,Judy,

look at the image Oso put up. really beautiful.

Well let's say you like the image but not the thought of watering.
Okay you hologram it, you get to keep the tree, but sell the hologram.

Secondly, exhibitions - World Displays.
Holograms from all over to display and no Plant Quarantine horrors or shipping of trees etc.
You can look at Tropical, Sub-Tropical, Warm and Cool temperate and beyond.
Just by walking.

Using technology, we can make Bonsai more akin to travelling Art Exhibitions at the Met,
The Louvre or The National Gallery [ UK ] or ........................
What do you think.
Good Day
Anthony

I believe you have it backwards.
I think the tree is art. I think a hologram of the tree is like a print of Monet that you buy to put in your house.