Rules for bonsai exhibits...

Does anyone grumble when a rich person who can't paint purchases and displays fine art? My understanding is that part of the point of the artisans cup being held at an art museum was to push the public perception of it as art, not just horticulture. Lots of people who can't "do" art support and participate in the art world, and that doesn't take anything away from people who paint just for themselves and don't show in national galleries.
 
Perhaps the whole conversation can be made clearer by understanding that, like any art, folks practice bonsai for different reasons. Some to learn the craft and be changed by it, some to win competitions, some to make a profit and a living off of what they already love to do or perhaps any combination of these. The purpose for involvement then dictates how we feel about others who are involved for other reasons. If I'm involved to enjoy and work on trees just for me and have no desire to show them, of course I'm not going to fully "get" why someone else would submit a tree to a competition that they had never seen. Similarly, if I'm trying to make a profit, I'm not going to understand why someone would go out and buy something really expensive when I could probably just collect a tree, style it and sell it for 5-10x as much as I payed to collect it.

We all approach this art form from slightly different perspectives and for different reasons. Is any one of them wrong?...not really. But if we try to look at other's actions through our lens, there will be times when we say, "Hmm...I don't get it!"

Personally, I have a decent job but am supporting a wife and 3 kids under 5 yrs. old (the kids are under 5, not my wife ;)). I can't afford expensive trees (too many diapers and formula!) but enjoy learning the art and would like to have something that I am proud to show at a state or regional level. Thus, I buy cheap, collect when I can and do my best to learn from others who have gone before me. I can't pretend to fully understand those who purchase expensive trees from others and submit them having not touched them myself but I do it to enjoy the trees. If I had inordinate amounts of cash, yeah...I'd probably have a pretty sweat garden of trees that others had styled and then a stash of some that I'm working on for my own enjoyment. Maybe I'd buy some awesome stock and style it myself. I appreciate both the process and the end product and for the time being, I need a lot more process and have a lot more to learn before I can achieve an end product that I'm truly proud of. Getting to that point (some years down the road) is why I practice bonsai!

Love the journey!
 
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Just for the record, my comments are not in any way related to what happened at the Artisans Cup at least not to the controversy regarding the judging.

I have no problem with a tree being worked on by other than the owner as long as credit is given to the person that did the work.

However, I do feel there might be a problem with Ryan being a judge on trees he worked on but that is another discussion than what was stated in the first post of this thread. That does raise some concerns.
 
ColinFraser said:
Does anyone grumble when a rich person who can't paint purchases and displays fine art? My understanding is that part of the point of the artisans cup being held at an art museum was to push the public perception of it as art, not just horticulture. Lots of people who can't "do" art support and participate in the art world, and that doesn't take anything away from people who paint just for themselves and don't show in national galleries.
Click to expand...

True to a point, but it now is my understanding this is a time old tradition if you will and not new to just this exhibit. So nothing new.

...I guess it ties into the tie breaker that also was my hiccup. But I'm chewing on it. With what 1/3 of the trees being worked on by Ryan...does make me think of an art exhibit where one artist shows his work. He must have some talent...I honestly don't know him or his work. I'm wet behind the ears. But...he sounds like an extremely gifted and talented man. Who has a passion for bonsai. That others did judge his work shows he has extreme talent to hit top three trees in those submitted.

The photos are stunning of this exhibit...I give him that!
 
Paradox said:
Just for the record, my comments are not in any way related to what happened at the Artisans Cup at least not to the controversy regarding the judging.

I have no problem with a tree being worked on by other than the owner as long as credit is given to the person that did the work.

However, I do feel there might be a problem with Ryan being a judge on trees he worked on but that is another discussion than what was stated in the first post of this thread. That does raise some concerns.
Click to expand...


I'm still chewing on the tie breaker vote. Some have no issues with it...some do. I sort of have a hiccup over it...but, am trying to see the reasoning why ones are okay with it. What am I not seeing? I must admit...I've not heard of such a thing before this was brought out. Which is why I'm trying to chew on it...see if I'm missing some leading factor that makes it okay by some.
 
It was his show and his rules. If people knew going in that Ryan would cast the final vote in the event of a tie, then they really shouldn't be complaining.

In a way, he got lucky in that all the top trees were trees that he had been involved in styling. What if the tie breaker had come down to one of his trees and a tree styled by someone else...and he picked the tree he had worked on?

My opinion, for what little it is worth - is that for future events, there should be a different tie-breaker. Either a completely independent party (as if there is such a thing), or the judges should just get together and hash it out and pick a winner. Either that, or just split the top award between the two trees if they really are that close.
 
Perhaps another thing worth bearing in mind is that an "art exhibit" is generally for the art consuming public, not just for artists. Most visitors to an exhibit will never know or care about all of the behind the scenes political crap, jury processes, or even what actually went into producing the art in the first place. They just want to look at beautiful things, and artists want to have their beautiful things looked at.

Maybe some of the kvetching would disappear if the art exhibit aspect were decoupled from the "contest" aspect (with prizes and such).
 
I see the same thing in modeling. Working the thong circuit is cutthroat. All the slim guys with long flowing hair look down their nose at us plus-size models, but its a gig I love. When I walk the runway I have "chubby-ass" on my chest in grease paint.
 
ColinFraser said:
Maybe some of the kvetching would disappear if the art exhibit aspect were decoupled from the "contest" aspect (with prizes and such).
Click to expand...

Exactly!!! I have been to dozens of bonsai shows over the years and more often than not I didn't agree with the judge's choices. That is not to say that they were wrong and I was right, because there is no right or wrong. Its like someone picking the best ice cream at an ice cream parlor. But that never lessened my enjoyment of the shows. It is a chance to see great trees. What more could you want? As a bonus you might get to hear the judge do critiques of various trees, which is always informative and useful. I'm not sure what purpose the contest part serves.
 
Smoke said:
I see the same thing in modeling. Working the thong circuit is cutthroat. All the slim guys with long flowing hair look down their nose at us plus-size models, but its a gig I love. When I walk the runway I have "chubby-ass" on my chest in grease paint.
Click to expand...

When do you guys think you'll be coming to Michigan to do a fashion show?
 
Cadillac,

Actually, there was a second tie breaker judge: Michael Hagedorn. He was also involved with picking the trees to be exhibited in the show. So, it wasn't all Ryan.

At Kokofu-ten, the judges pick the top five. Then a panel of non-bonsai professionals choose the winner. I don't know how that panel is selected. Are they just celebrities? Don't know. It kinda makes the final selection a "people's choice" kind of thing.
 
As an aside, I had the responsibility to judge a show earlier this past summer. I was also asked to bring a couple trees for the show.

I did not even attempt to grade or rank my own displays. I did, however, critique them along with all the other displays.

In addition to my judging, there was a "People's Choice Award" where the attendees were allowed to vote on their favorite tree. One of my trees won People's Choice. I did think it was the best single tree there. There were some awesome Shohin displays. That I think were better than my tree. But shohin usually can't compete against full size trees.

But...

I'm glad I did not have to judge my own tree in that show!
 
Adair M said:
At Kokofu-ten, the judges pick the top five. Then a panel of non-bonsai professionals choose the winner. I don't know how that panel is selected. Are they just celebrities? Don't know. It kinda makes the final selection a "people's choice" kind of thing.
Click to expand...

This is an excellent way to judge IMO
Take the crap off the table the civilians can't pick out. And let them chose from the deserving.

Far as owning or selling or doing it for yourself.......
No one is incapable of having really good material.
Don't get stuck in that rut!

Far as if it's here to stay.........

Ryan Neil is a persistent feller.
Maybe y'all didnt see the 37 videos with the same story!

The way I see it, the more Rich Folks buying bonsai, the more lies I can make up for my wife!

"Oh yeah. I can sell them for way more than $5.00!"

Sorce
 
Smoke said:
I see the same thing in modeling. Working the thong circuit is cutthroat. All the slim guys with long flowing hair look down their nose at us plus-size models, but its a gig I love. When I walk the runway I have "chubby-ass" on my chest in grease paint.
Click to expand...

All I could think about after reading this:

image.jpg
image.jpg
image.jpg
 
No thong...is Smoke on the right or the left?
 
No grease paint either...I'm very confused.
 
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