rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Wonder how people would see "The Rules" if they were called "The Basics?" Bet half the people chafing under "Da Rules" would not when what's put in front of them are "the basics" of learning where to begin bonsai...hmmmm
The "So?" response to bonsai rules.
- Thread starter Joe Dupre'
- Start date
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Some people just gotta have rules. I think It’s-a societal kinda thing…. Always packing on more ad infinitum.
Basics is better, but then there’s those that just love to judge and cling to ‘Da Rules”
Best
DSD sends
Basics is better, but then there’s those that just love to judge and cling to ‘Da Rules”
Best
DSD sends
Gabler
Masterpiece
Some people just gotta have rules. I think It’s-a societal kinda thing…. Always packing on more ad infinitum.
Basics is better, but then there’s those that just love to judge and cling to ‘Da Rules”
Best
DSD sends
I've started calling them "guidelines." People enjoy the Pirates of the Caribbean reference, and it makes them sound more helpful than restrictive.
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Bonsai is an artform, and all art is ultimately subjective. But as my art teacher said, you must first learn the rules so that you understand how to (successfully) break them. There are rules to design and composition which have been shaped by centuries of experimentation and study into what the human eyes generally find pleasing to look at. Same with bonsai. It's fine to break rules, as long as you understand why you're doing it and what the result will be for the viewer--at least, if you want a majority of people to find your composition pleasing and not ugly.
But if it's truly art just for you, then yeah, it doesn't matter if it doesn't appeal to the majority. The importance of using rules for design comes down to your goals and reasons for creating art. If you're looking to sell bonsai trees or have many admire them, you definitely want trees that appeal to the majority. If they never leave your private backyard collection, then what does it matter? Both sides are valid. That's my 2 cents.
But if it's truly art just for you, then yeah, it doesn't matter if it doesn't appeal to the majority. The importance of using rules for design comes down to your goals and reasons for creating art. If you're looking to sell bonsai trees or have many admire them, you definitely want trees that appeal to the majority. If they never leave your private backyard collection, then what does it matter? Both sides are valid. That's my 2 cents.
Bonsai Forest
Omono
what a ride this comment was, thank you sir (kek!)
Bonsai Forest
Omono
well said
I was thinking about this topic again and think we need to define "rules." Rules are a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere. Breaking a rule has a ramification - a punishment of sorts. Break a rule of federal law, go to jail. Break a horticultural rule, harm or kill your tree. Aesthetics are not "rules" in this respect. There is no punishment for breaking them. Rather than being rules per se, the "bonsai rules" are nothing but statistical observations of what people as a whole find attractive. Humans naturally find certain proportions, certain combinations of colors or sounds, etc. more appealing than others. If we asked 100 people which tree, piece of art, human face etc. are most attractive, we will find consensus of opinion. This consensus can be broken down into "rules" describing the proportions etc. that made the thing attractive by consensus.
For example, I have a book that demonstrates placement of branches using multiple pics of the same tree with the branch placed in different places. If these were shown to 100 non-bonsai people, I believe we would have a general consensus as to where the branch looks best. This observation then dictates, for example, that branches on the outside of a bend look better than on the inside. But you don't go to jail or harm/kill your tree by not following this observation. Ultimately, it comes down to matters of taste. That said, we humans all seem to find very similar things attractive.
For example, I have a book that demonstrates placement of branches using multiple pics of the same tree with the branch placed in different places. If these were shown to 100 non-bonsai people, I believe we would have a general consensus as to where the branch looks best. This observation then dictates, for example, that branches on the outside of a bend look better than on the inside. But you don't go to jail or harm/kill your tree by not following this observation. Ultimately, it comes down to matters of taste. That said, we humans all seem to find very similar things attractive.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
The above is one of the reasons why bonsai AI doesn't work very well.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
What bonsai people find attractive.
I've asked more than 10 non bonsai people to judge my plants and they all came up with a different answer, all different reasoning too. I've seen a girl cry because she lost her mallsai ficus, I offered her to pick any tree I own and she denied because she didn't think they were pretty. All she has ever seen was mallsai.
Now I agree that 95% of my stock is crap, but there are a couple pearls in there that fit the golden standard.
If you're going to ask plastic surgeons their definition of beauty, the answer is very different than when you ask random people on the streets.
The bonsai people judge the shows, the bonsai people teach the classes, the bonsai people write the books and the bonsai people educate the bonsai people. They also post all the pictures we see online. So I guess all definitions of what's attractive to us - as bonsai people - is highly biased towards bonsai people.
Statistically speaking, we can omit the whole analysis as the group we've sampled is proned, primed and biased to lean towards favoring Japanese and Western bonsai.
I'm willing to bet that Indonesian and Thai bonsai practitioners will not like our designs. They have way more acute angles and more dreamy designs. I can't stand them! Why would they make so many of them if humans as a whole don't like them?
Not trying to start an argument, but this was my conclusion after I realized I hated junipers with deadwood in 2016 and love them now. I'm heavily biased towards what I'm exposed to and to what you all say about what's good and what isn't. No problem for me to admit that.
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Without going too nuts on this in middle of a report… lol I think you’re onto something but you also have to think of the type of tree and what aesthetic you are trying to create and also invoke on the viewer and also what type of feeling are you portraying, is your specimen meant to be shown in its peak during spring , summer , fall or winter? How else will features be highlighted whether the tree or the composition it’s planted in etc. there are rules or rather guidelines for what makes a bonsai a bonsai but also within each style or species what boxes should be checked or how are you providing insight that you know wtf you’re doing at a level where your work can be interpreted in a manner that grants you “the freedom to explore boundaries
Asymetrix
Sapling
I usually don't respond to these kind of threads because it's only feeding the trolls. However...
Here's a rule for you.
You aren't an artist because you call yourself one.
Your an artist based on the success of your work and the effect is has on others.
If 99/100 people don't like your aesthetic choices, it's most likely because they are wrong, and no amount of arrogance is going to change anyone's mind.
Also, responses like "so" are a clear indicator you have nothing valid to refute with.
The proof is always in someone's actual work. The quintessential "actions speak louder than words".
Here's a rule for you.
You aren't an artist because you call yourself one.
Your an artist based on the success of your work and the effect is has on others.
If 99/100 people don't like your aesthetic choices, it's most likely because they are wrong, and no amount of arrogance is going to change anyone's mind.
Also, responses like "so" are a clear indicator you have nothing valid to refute with.
The proof is always in someone's actual work. The quintessential "actions speak louder than words".
August
Chumono
This seems overly dogmatic. You can't be an artist if your art isn't successful and loved? I understand the point you are trying to make but I think you've over corrected.
To be perfectly clear, I disagree with the original post; most of us do, this conversation has been going on for months now, not sure if you read through it but I assume you didn't, especially if you think your take is unique.
I'm only saying something because your attitude in this post stinks; saying you "dont usually waste time on feeding the trolls" to insinuate that you are somehow above the conversation and the poster, and that it's some kind of sacrifice for you to stoop so low as to give a response, and then to give a subjective opinion with the authoritative tone of a fact... your words are fancy but your etiquette needs work.
Asymetrix
Sapling
Maybe it is dogma. That's because I respect the process. No your art doesn't have to be loved for it to be successful, at least for yourself. I suppose as long no one else voices their opinions than by all means your the next Picasso.
I read most of the posts. My take is unique because it's my own.
I'm clearly not above the conversation because I'm participating in it. Trolls are always lurking right under the surface, fortunately for us here they are just slightly less abundant.
I read most of the posts. My take is unique because it's my own.
I'm clearly not above the conversation because I'm participating in it. Trolls are always lurking right under the surface, fortunately for us here they are just slightly less abundant.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
so?
Very interesting response and I have to think to what extent I agree. I actually have a running argument with my wife about notions of universal beauty or what a society finds beautiful. Do you believe that we could be indoctrinated to fundamentally change what we believe is beautiful? Personally, there's no amount of ugly people on the cover of magazines that is going to get me to believe that supermodel X is anything but stunning, and the opposite of that is anything but the opposite of that. (That's usually the point where I am bringing my pillow to the couch).
To me, bonsai is an idealized version of a tree. The elements we focus on in achieving this ideal will differ from culture to culture, but many of the things we identify as "bonsai rules" will remain the same (maybe).
I'm pretty sure, that notion of what is considered beautiful if we speak about human beauty changes with time. Some trends come and go, but I would say what we find beautiful now and what is considered beautiful is changing relatively fast if we compare it with human history. Plastic surgeons would probably talk about it in great lengths, thanks to those changing trends, they could drive a new Porsche every 5years or so.
And to stay on home turf, males with big beards and wearing flannel shirts used to be lumberjacks and truck drivers just a decade ago, and look how well they are doing now.
eugenev2
Shohin
I need to add here that things like beauty/attractiveness is very subjective and is very depended on your environment and cultural norms.
Where i'm from what is considered attractive by the majority will not be seen on any of these magazines with super models, but this also reminds my of a study that was once done on identifying universal attractiveness where the 20 men surveyed were all roughly from the same demographic and it was found that they could with a roughly 99% accuracy predict what they found attractive, the 20 woman surveyed though, provided 20 different views of attractiveness.
Anecdote aside, i feel like the aesthetics you prefer, is greatly influence by your experience and influences, as an example most of the locally produced trees would never make it in show in the states, as the people here prefer a more natural approach to aesthetics, which people oversees would probably say looks like bushes ext. There are a smaller following locally that have been influence by Japanese culture, hence prefer their styling and a more "traditional" bonsai approach. But for me personally it's hard as the natural approach feel rough and unfinished and the Japanese style feels very overly manicured. I always see people associate the pierneef style with South African bonsai, but it is actually a exceedingly rare site to see trees in nature and only really confined to a small section of the country.
Sooooo......??
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
You broke the rules... because you never bothered to learn them. Your tree is now dead. Repeat 1000x times until you finally can keep a tree alive in a pot. 20 years have gone by. Congratulations! You now know some of the rules!The members of my bonsai club and the local bonsai artists know about my disdain for "The Rules". If you want to follow the guidelines or rules, please do. If the guidance of the rules helps you make a better bonsai, please use it. My PERSONAL view is that I don't need them. No.....that's not entirely accurate. I have them in the back of my mind when working on my trees. It's just that they really can't be followed in the majority of instances working with trees that are not of a standard style. The majority of my trees are one-off, mower-ravaged basket cases. This "left branch, right branch, rear branch ...... gradual tapering of the trunk........ no reverse taper" style of design is basically impossible to me. I've come to find other ways to make trees look good in my eyes. I still enjoy seeing classically-styled bonsai trees.
So, what happens if you don't follow the rules?
"That branch is in the wrong place."
"So??"
"Well, the rules say you shouldn't have a branch there."
"So??"
"If you go against the rules, you probably won't place in any show."
"I'll live. So??"
Well, some people may not consider that a proper bonsai."
"I do. So??"
"Some clubs and bonsai artists may not like your trees."
"That's fine by me. So??"
"Well...................well....................."
"If you're done, I'm going to prune my bonsai now.
On the other hand, if you want to abide by the rules or guidelines, I'll enthusiastically promote and enjoy your trees. It's just not for me. Sometimes you have to venture off of the beaten path.
Meanwhile someone who studied under a master and learned from their experience was already better at bonsai in two years than you are in 20. Because they learned the rules. And by the way... once they have mastered the rules they are still free to do whatever they want.
I think what people are getting hung up on is the idea of rules as some sort of unwritten bonsai law. In that context they don't exist. Rather they are more like the accumulated knowledge of all the best artists who have gone before.
(Just to lighten the mood I'll add a meme I created for our meme war thread - rules are to be learned, but they are not laws and they are never absolute. But breaking the rules is not the same thing as not knowing the rules to start with. This meme is only funny if you know what a shohin is, and what its size limit is supposed to be - and then pokes fun at the rule by saying "it isn't really that absolute". But you should still know it
)
Last edited:
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
For me it is simple. I don’t attempt Tokyo drift until I master turning.
Similar threads
