the queer folks thread
pandacular
Masterpiece
It was pretty eye opening for me moving to a place where it was suddenly much safer and socially approved to be openly gay. As much as this gradation occurs in region and space, it exists in time, in generations. To queer folks it is completely logical and frankly magical that more and more youth are able to express their gender identity before habit and hatred shoves them into a box.
thanks for chatting, @shohin_branches, I hope you’re doing well!
thanks for chatting, @shohin_branches, I hope you’re doing well!
pandacular
Masterpiece
This is such a tragic moment in time that it’s devastatingly obscured from public. So many young gay kids ask the question “where are all the happy old gay men” and it’s always challenging to share that story.
PerryB
Shohin
Despite knowing I was queer in high school growing up in a small town in the fundamentalist South in the 60s, and despite having a boyfriend (and other exploits) in a college town in the early 70s, I didn't feel any possibility of having an open, honest life until I got sober in 1984. Yes...I said "A LIFE". Not just a gay life, but any concept of how to be.
It was my AA sponsor, a straight man from San Francisco, who helped me get out of the closet. When I first went to a gay AA meeting, I was literally shocked at how many gay sober men there were. But this was 1984-85, and soon the gay meetings were enormous because men were realizing that even though gay bars were our safe havens, we needed to be sober to face the onslaught of AIDS.
When I met my husband in 1988, he had been an AIDS buddy volunteer at the National Institutes of Health (and knew Dr. Anthony Fauci at the start of his career) and had been bedside as many men whose families had rejected them died. Also, by that time, his own friends in DC were dying every week; he was going to 2 or 3 funerals per week. These were men in their 30s and 40s. In 1984 he had gone on a beach trip to Florida with 12 guts, by 1990 he was the only survivor.
That's what happened to my generation.
I am thrilled to know that young queer people are able to recognize ways to live now that weren't possible for my generation---either because of judgmental attitudes in the culture or because of a disease that killed so many of us.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I didn't realize it was that bad. The AIDS epidemic was mentioned in passing in my health class in high school, and it came up from time to time in my anthropology coursework in college, but no one really talked about the numbers. It was always a discussion about how to prevent transmission of the virus and how it affected the immune system.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
The AIDS epidemic was absolutely horrible in Thailand. The burgeoning sex industry and lack of health care left thousands and thousands in dire strait. Many of them sought refuge in Buddhist temples and died there. The monks told us that it was an unrelenting wave for many years.
PerryB
Shohin
My gay AA meetings were decimated all through the 90s, and despite the AIDS "cocktails" with many drug treatments in the mix starting in about '92, there were continued early deaths of men I knew right into the mid-2015 years. I know a very few lucky guys who've been HIV positive since testing began (around 1988?) who are still miraculously alive.
Still, between my husband's friends and mine, we've known well over 100 who died in their 20s, 30s or 40s. It was only a matter of sexual preferences and my getting sober when I did that kept us among the living.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Think this is fitting.
Rene Klijn sang a song when he was in advanced stages of HIV. The song debutes in a TV show by one of the few openly gay TV presenters in the Netherlands. This was 1992, when HIV-AIDS was mostly a hidden disease in the Netherlands, but became very visible through this song.
Mr blue the song as broadcast:
.
Rene Klijn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/René_Klijn
About the song & effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Blue_(Yazoo_song)
Rene Klijn sang a song when he was in advanced stages of HIV. The song debutes in a TV show by one of the few openly gay TV presenters in the Netherlands. This was 1992, when HIV-AIDS was mostly a hidden disease in the Netherlands, but became very visible through this song.
Mr blue the song as broadcast:
Rene Klijn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/René_Klijn
About the song & effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Blue_(Yazoo_song)
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
Hi
Straight ally here.
if you need any bonsai tips on tropicals or indoor grow lighting I may be able to offer guidance.
Straight ally here.
if you need any bonsai tips on tropicals or indoor grow lighting I may be able to offer guidance.
Michael P
Omono
WOW! I can't believe I've missed this discussion until now! I've at least skimmed the whole thing. It has been very moving and provoked some unexpected insights.
Since many of you have been very generous sharing your own stories it is only right that I do so too. I am a 71 year old cis gendered gay man. Many of the topics and issues you have discussed have been "settled" aspects of my personality for many years, but I remember when that was not true.
In strange ways my journey to bonsai and my journey to authentic self awareness have mirrored each other. I became interested in bonsai and other aspects of Japanese culture in my early teens. (I think I had the infamous Sunset book.) That was also the time when I became aware of my sexual orientation. Make no mistake, I believe I was homosexual from birth and possibly before depending on which theory of gender identity and sexual orientation you believe. Of course in the early 60's I didn't know the words gay or sexual orientation, but I knew all the other words: homo, faggot, fairy, sissy, pansy, pervert, queer (that one still bothers me just a little), sick, and god-cursed sinner damned to hell for all eternity. I realized that all those applied to me not long after my 13th birthday in a sudden and terrifying flash of insight. I suppressed and repressed that knowledge until my twenties, living in a kind of dissociative fugue state for over a decade.
I was near suicide when I finally decided that being gay could not be as abjectly miserable as the life I was living. My bargain with myself was that if being gay was as bad or worse I could still kill myself later.
In 1975 about the time I opened the closet door a tiny crack, I acquired my first bonsai. It is a natal plum Carrissa macrocarpa. I still have it! It survived my decades of ignorance as did with my then very fragile gay identity. The photo is from May of this year after a major trim.
One of the topics I especially enjoyed in the discussion is about the use of terms "masculine" and "feminine" in bonsai. I have always hated both and avoid them completely. A parallel topic is the question of how one presents oneself to society, as either culturally male or female, as matching one's genitals or not. As a little boy I showed many "gender non-conforming behaviors" and was labeled with the most insulting adjectives in Oklahoma of the '50s and '60s, "He's a sissy, he's a girl!" After I came out, people suddenly began to perceive me as "masculine". A much older Lesbian colleague told me at the start of my professional career, "You can pass, nobody will think you are that way." This perplexed me, because by that time I was OUT, WAY OUT, and didn't care who knew. People perceived me as "male" because when I came out I found my strength, my confidence, my self-worth, my pride. Why were those traits considered only the province of men?
To all my Queer Tribe, I salute you!
Since many of you have been very generous sharing your own stories it is only right that I do so too. I am a 71 year old cis gendered gay man. Many of the topics and issues you have discussed have been "settled" aspects of my personality for many years, but I remember when that was not true.
In strange ways my journey to bonsai and my journey to authentic self awareness have mirrored each other. I became interested in bonsai and other aspects of Japanese culture in my early teens. (I think I had the infamous Sunset book.) That was also the time when I became aware of my sexual orientation. Make no mistake, I believe I was homosexual from birth and possibly before depending on which theory of gender identity and sexual orientation you believe. Of course in the early 60's I didn't know the words gay or sexual orientation, but I knew all the other words: homo, faggot, fairy, sissy, pansy, pervert, queer (that one still bothers me just a little), sick, and god-cursed sinner damned to hell for all eternity. I realized that all those applied to me not long after my 13th birthday in a sudden and terrifying flash of insight. I suppressed and repressed that knowledge until my twenties, living in a kind of dissociative fugue state for over a decade.
I was near suicide when I finally decided that being gay could not be as abjectly miserable as the life I was living. My bargain with myself was that if being gay was as bad or worse I could still kill myself later.
In 1975 about the time I opened the closet door a tiny crack, I acquired my first bonsai. It is a natal plum Carrissa macrocarpa. I still have it! It survived my decades of ignorance as did with my then very fragile gay identity. The photo is from May of this year after a major trim.
One of the topics I especially enjoyed in the discussion is about the use of terms "masculine" and "feminine" in bonsai. I have always hated both and avoid them completely. A parallel topic is the question of how one presents oneself to society, as either culturally male or female, as matching one's genitals or not. As a little boy I showed many "gender non-conforming behaviors" and was labeled with the most insulting adjectives in Oklahoma of the '50s and '60s, "He's a sissy, he's a girl!" After I came out, people suddenly began to perceive me as "masculine". A much older Lesbian colleague told me at the start of my professional career, "You can pass, nobody will think you are that way." This perplexed me, because by that time I was OUT, WAY OUT, and didn't care who knew. People perceived me as "male" because when I came out I found my strength, my confidence, my self-worth, my pride. Why were those traits considered only the province of men?
To all my Queer Tribe, I salute you!
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Sorry to hear @Michael P . I am glad the world has grown up a little bit in this aspect.
It relates strongly to a comment I made earlier: There is little reason for people to see on the outside who you are on the inside. One might feel that the whole world know, but only very few people pay attention (or care); at least, in this part of the world. And then there is a small vocal, asserrtive group that ruin people's lives over stupid things that should not matter. :|
I think this is one of the most important observations.
It relates strongly to a comment I made earlier: There is little reason for people to see on the outside who you are on the inside. One might feel that the whole world know, but only very few people pay attention (or care); at least, in this part of the world. And then there is a small vocal, asserrtive group that ruin people's lives over stupid things that should not matter. :|
Do you feel that is what happened? That you were seen as male because of changes in confidence? Or could it be that once you found your confidence, you were just no longer easy picking to hurl insults at? I find that your level of inner confidence defines a LOT of social interactions, including professional opportunities as well as relationship stability. Why would it be any different for other social interactions?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Based on this thread I realize I had never really thought about it being an issue..
pandacular
Masterpiece
Thanks for contributing to the discussion, Michael. Your story is both heartbreaking and inspiring. In regards to feeling/being perceived as more masculine after coming out, I think there are several layers to that. One is what Jelle mentions about self confidence removing the target of hapless bullied. But I think understanding yourself is key to expressing yourself.
In my experience, I found that really embracing my sexuality (coming out to myself, so to speak) allowed me to really think about this whole masculinity/femininity thing more deeply. I had probably been, like you and so many others, avoiding the topic. It wasn’t until I started discussing and reading about gender and being in queer spaces that I really understood the role masculinity played in my life.
compared to American ones. I’ve noticed a difference there in the way these particular things are discussed (I blame American masculine machismo culture, but I don’t really know the European side of it). I suspect another part of it is that, by and large, queer people spend a lot more time thinking about these things. I’ve already shared my thoughts on the terms in bonsai, so won’t rehash them, but I do find it interesting that these words carry some normative weight to them, and I suspect that is where the challenge comes.
In my experience, I found that really embracing my sexuality (coming out to myself, so to speak) allowed me to really think about this whole masculinity/femininity thing more deeply. I had probably been, like you and so many others, avoiding the topic. It wasn’t until I started discussing and reading about gender and being in queer spaces that I really understood the role masculinity played in my life.
I think part of this is continental attitudes a
compared to American ones. I’ve noticed a difference there in the way these particular things are discussed (I blame American masculine machismo culture, but I don’t really know the European side of it). I suspect another part of it is that, by and large, queer people spend a lot more time thinking about these things. I’ve already shared my thoughts on the terms in bonsai, so won’t rehash them, but I do find it interesting that these words carry some normative weight to them, and I suspect that is where the challenge comes.
Michael P
Omono
I don't think so. Long before I came out I learned how to defend myself, at least verbally. The skills of argument and sarcasm served me well. I was still the weird sissy kid, but I was a mean sissy who could counter-attack and embarrass my tormentors. And I learned to avoid any situation where I was greatly out-numbered and the attacks could become physical.
On rare occasions when I tell my coming out story now, I do so because even "hetero-normative" allies often have no idea what a profound and life changing event it often is. So yes, sometimes we need to flaunt it and rub bigots' noses in it. My hope for the future is that no one needs to have that experience because there will be no closets. But to quote Thomas Jefferson, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."
We must. Sometimes it is a matter of survival.
Pandacular, thanks so much for starting this thread and thanks to everyone who has contributed to it.
Look at the bright side, at least you get to be yourself in this day and age. Imagine if instead those who spoke for the LGBT community were only those who actually rejected it. Perhaps someone at the DNC who went through “conversion therapy” and was now in a hetero relationship as your spokesperson. And then if you tried to say that this was actually anti-LGBT, you were told that it can’t be as gay people support it too. And if you tried to defend who you were, these people would say “not in my name”. Because this is my reality. I am tolerated so long as I look like and share the values of the John Stewarts of the world. It’s only the people who reject my heritage and millennia of history who get the opportunity to purport to speak for me. And if I dare raise my voice, I’m told this can’t be anti because my people are saying it. Or better, I’m told that I deserve all manner of horrible thing happening to me and mine because I refuse to reject who I am. Those who went through the proverbial “conversion therapy” do not speak for me, just like I’m sure you wouldn’t have them speak for you. Facts are stubborn things and truth will ultimately prevail.
Michael P
Omono
Yes, in some places and at some times. But all over USA there are legislative efforts to suppress and erase my tribe and our history. Perhaps you didn't notice that I live in Texas.
The rest of your post confuses me completely. What is your reality?
My reality is not dissimilar to yours - we can be who we are so long as we hide it and ultimately reject ourselves. What’s so hard to understand? More than happy to discuss over DM if you want to talk. I’d rather not be told publicly why I really “dont deserve” civil liberties because of whatever prejudice and falsehoods someone may feel entitled to express.
Michael P
Omono
I don't want to do any of those things so let's drop the subject.
If I thought you would do that, I wouldnt have invited the convo. My concern was not you but rather opening this up to a public debate that would quickly devolve into nonsense.