the queer folks thread

[dbonsaiw]

As a teenager in high school I deeply feel that gender confusion and the roles(performance) of gender is going to have detrimental consequences. I want to point out that I am talking about Gender in humans. Yes I know some animals actually can change genders and it’s performances but humans can’t change genders and can’t completely change its performances.

In a heterosexual relationship there is the masculine and the feminine. This is also same in homosexual relationships. The more neutral each person is, the less strong the connection is. The only issue is that in homosexual relationships it’s just not possible (/or even healthy for society) to have a masculine man and a feminine man/ or a masculine women and a feminine women.

God clearly created the man to be the masculine and women to be the feminine. When there is a relationship other than a masculine man and a feminine women then it’s not healthy at all.

Our society has “pride” for this but it’s ruining this society. My school has females that identify as males, and males that identify as females. But now we are forgetting that we are humans. There are lots of kids who identify as cats, bunnies, tigers, dogs, and other nonsense. One of the most important reasons for having gender roles is procreation which is now decreasing amongst the latest generations. However, this wouldn’t be happening if society didn’t promote these silly ideas.

Straight, white, conservative male here and I don't agree. We humans give ourselves way too much credit for our decisions - I think we totally overlook that we are the direct product of society. As hunter/gatherers, men and women clearly played different roles. In today's concrete jungle, so much of gender differentiation is arbitrary. I was called "queer" growing up for having long hair, because only girls had long hair. Only girls garden. Only boys do jiu jitsu. BS. We have less women in STEM because of this silly distinction. I do believe in biological sex, but my son's desire to crochet doesn't freak me out. I lean on my wife's salary when needed. She has me cook when needed. So what roles are we discussing? I haven't had a ton of lesbian friends, but my gay friends don't follow your roles. Some are both very manly men. Others are both swooshy (is that ok to say, because they use that word around me?). BTW, I've had my ass handed to me in jiu jitsu by girly girls.

But my question is really - why does anyone give a shit? Why does anyone care who I love or what I do in the bedroom? Why would my dress code cause societal rifts? How can the delegation of duties between me and my wife dictate gender roles? I truly do not understand why we as a society are fighting about these issues. Can't we just leave people alone and let me be me? I have never once had someone check inside my pants before using the men's room.

We arbitrarily decided how to express masculinity and femininity. One need look no further than history to prove this. The great thing about the First Amendment is you can disagree. But we need to let others disagree as well.

 

[pandacular]

There’s a lot to unpack in this comment. You’re young, so I’ll keep it brief.

Probably the biggest thing is the distinction between sex and gender. Most of what you’re talking is sex—sex is a biological thing (and oh ya, any biologist will also tell you it’s a spectrum!) Sex determines what “bits” we have and how and with whom we can procreate. But it’s not just that as a female human with fertility problems is still a female, right?

The phrase “gender is a social construct” is something you may have heard before. In other words, it’s something we express. When I put on a dress and making, it is (to me) a clear and obvious expression of gender. I’m playing off society’s expectations of “MAN”. I am, in that performance more feminine. The ideas of feminine and masculine are not tied to sex. When you start meeting and interacting with more queer adults, it will become more obvious—you’ll see many pairings of hyper femme women in relationships with butch women (one of my favorite pairings btw ) and other such combinations. This is gender expression—how we choose to display ourselves, lest we let society choose the “default” for us based on our sex.

In my own (ostensibly) heterosexual relationship, my partner—a woman—and I often play different gender roles in different parts of our lives. One example is our clothes; hers are feminine in form, but masculine in style, while mine are often the opposite (I like florals, pinks, gold jewelry, and eyeliner).

God clearly created the man to be the masculine and women to be the feminine. When there is a relationship other than a masculine man and a feminine women then it’s not healthy at all.

This is a bi-partite statement, and I don’t think either is true. If God intended such a clear divide, why did she create intersex people, who have parts of both sexes? If they intended such a clear divide, why then are there people with hormone deficiencies that render them unable to express their sex? that If he intended such a clear divide, why does every society in human history have accounts, names, and often genders for people who fall out of the norm?

The second part of the statement is pure slop, with no basis in lived experience. I would ask for evidence that such relationships are unhealthy, but there is none. Your claim a out birth rates is also wholly unsupported and I have yet to see any evidence that birth rate decline is caused by anything other than economic factors. Why are some of the regions with declining birth rates, such as Japan and Italy, also some of the most homophobic?

I do hear you on one thing—among younger people, there seems to be a rising tide of a static queer identity. Younger queer communities tend to be less accepting of those who can pass or who don’t look a certain, prescribed way. I have seen this first hand, and hear it from a few masc gay friends. This is certainly a challenge for some, but I’m heartened that in my discussions with elder queers, it was also something that they saw earlier in their lives but has declined in their cohort. Personally, I think this sort of prescriptivism is one of the many issues of internet culture and social media rather than queer culture, as I see similar changes occuring in other spaces.

 

[pandacular]

A palate cleanser from the world of vogue femmes.

 

[Njyamadori]

Straight, white, conservative male here and I don't agree.

Maybe you aren’t as conservative than you actually think you are. A moderate from a few years ago are now “ultra conservatives”. Shows how progressive politics and social norms is getting in such a sort period of time.

As hunter/gatherers, men and women clearly played different roles. In today's concrete jungle, so much of gender differentiation is arbitrary.

A few of the gender roles may be lost due to modernity but it definitely is important in a spiritual sense. Just because men don’t have to hunt down animals for food doesn’t mean that it’s no longer his job to provide material necessities for his family.

Only boys do jiu jitsu... BTW, I've had my ass handed to me in jiu jitsu by girly girls.

Maybe because jiu jitsu is for girls . It wouldn’t happen in boxing or any other practical martial art. But jiu jitsu is much more technical than about strength which is much more effective for females.

But my question is really - why does anyone give a shit? Why does anyone care who I love or what I do in the bedroom? Why would my dress code cause societal rifts? How can the delegation of duties between me and my wife dictate gender roles? I truly do not understand why we as a society are fighting about these issues. Can't we just leave people alone and let me be me? I have never once had someone check inside my pants before using the men's room.

The reason why I will sometimes talk against this nonsense is because it will affect society especially in the younger generations. People act like having a drastic change in society won’t have any effect(positive or negative). From having husbands and wifes with children in the household to divorced parents, gay couples with no children, or gay couples with adopted children is drastically going to impact the younger generations. From the teens who identify as animals, gay, or are even heterosexual but are having unhealthy sex, there is one thing in common. They all don’t have a masculine father married to a feminine mother.

We have to come together and discuss this. We can’t act like this cant change society. The impact is going to be huge.

 

[Gabler]

I have lately been wondering about the number of LGBT kids relative to the total population. As a kid, I learned that one in ten people was born gay. I've since learned that number is outdated, but it's at least clear clear that amongst adults, the queer community is a minority group. However, amongst teenagers, the proportions seem to be inverted. Is it a confirmation bias on my part, or is it a real phenomenon? If it's real, why the sudden uptick? Does it mean anything, or am I just asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I can't seem to find any sources with answers that don't have a clear political bias.

 

[dbonsaiw]

However, amongst teenagers, the proportions seem to be inverted. Is it a confirmation bias on my part, or is it a real phenomenon?

Indeed. Humans are just smarter monkeys. The powers that be wind us up and let us go. We think we are making decisions for ourselves. Most of us haven't had an original idea our whole lives. Conformity is the hobgoblin of little minds and conform we do. There was no greater relaxation for a straight Greek man 2,000 years ago than to sit in a bath house and get serviced by young boys. That was straight and manly. We mainly play the role we are directed to play - and that's kind of the point with gender as well. It all depends on the popular messaging. If its religious, then the masses will conform to that. If we are picking on a certain group, the masses will conform to that. If we are told that the ugly Tesla SUV is the bomb, we will buy that. We will wear crocs because we are told to. Every year for the past 50 years (5,000???) we warn that the world is coming to an end - because we are told to. We are all so convinced our of message that we forgot to realize that we are just regurgitated this from someone else. My message is live and let live.

 

[PerryB]

I have lately been wondering about the number of LGBT kids relative to the total population. As a kid, I learned that one in ten people was born gay. I've since learned that number is outdated, but it's at least clear clear that amongst adults, the queer community is a minority group. However, amongst teenagers, the proportions seem to be inverted. Is it a confirmation bias on my part, or is it a real phenomenon? If it's real, why the sudden uptick? Does it mean anything, or am I just asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I can't seem to find any sources with answers that don't have a clear political bias.

I think the Internet has blown up all expectations. Because of the Internet (ans also cable TV), virtually every teenager can see that there are alternatives to what their parents might dictate to them about gender and sexuality---but also about religion, careers, music, drugs, other ethnicities, etc.

I grew up in a very fundamentalist tea--totalling family (in a dry county, too) and thankfully had enough smarts and curiosity to look for other models of what was possible and acceptable.

Most teenagers today know that racism is just masquerading hatred and ignorance. In the same way, most are at least aware (as I was not when in my teenage years in the 1960s) that there are gay men and women all around the world, that there's a spectrum of masculine/feminine presentations among women and among men, AND that none of these identifications or presentations is evidence of a mental health issue or of any dysfunction. The possibilities are endless.

I do think it's healthy to not display all aspects of ourselves to the entire world, our neighborhoods or even our families---whether gay, straight, Trans, bi, or what have you. Discretion is for me a virtue---AND YET: In the face of someone's prejudice or discrimination, I am proud to burst out of my comfortable anonymity to confront that hatred. I'm also proud to kiss my husband in front of neighbors and family all of whom know us well, but out on the streets or at the grocery store? I'm just an ordinary guy.

 

[pandacular]

Maybe you aren’t as conservative than you actually think you are. A moderate from a few years ago are now “ultra conservatives”. Shows how progressive politics and social norms is getting in such a sort period of time.

A few of the gender roles may be lost due to modernity but it definitely is important in a spiritual sense. Just because men don’t have to hunt down animals for food doesn’t mean that it’s no longer his job to provide material necessities for his family.

Maybe because jiu jitsu is for girls . It wouldn’t happen in boxing or any other practical martial art. But jiu jitsu is much more technical than about strength which is much more effective for females.

The reason why I will sometimes talk against this nonsense is because it will affect society especially in the younger generations. People act like having a drastic change in society won’t have any effect(positive or negative). From having husbands and wifes with children in the household to divorced parents, gay couples with no children, or gay couples with adopted children is drastically going to impact the younger generations. From the teens who identify as animals, gay, or are even heterosexual but are having unhealthy sex, there is one thing in common. They all don’t have a masculine father married to a feminine mother.

We have to come together and discuss this. We can’t act like this cant change society. The impact is going to be huge.

With this response, you made it quite clear that your goal wasn’t to learn or share your opinion, but to hurt. I would ask again WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE for any of your claims, but that is not your interest or goal. I hope you can grow and reckon with the biases that make you feel this way.

 

[pandacular]

I do think it's healthy to not display all aspects of ourselves to the entire world, our neighborhoods or even our families---whether gay, straight, Trans, bi, or what have you. Discretion is for me a virtue---AND YET: In the face of someone's prejudice or discrimination, I am proud to burst out of my comfortable anonymity to confront that hatred. I'm also proud to kiss my husband in front of neighbors and family all of whom know us well, but out on the streets or at the grocery store? I'm just an ordinary guy.

There’s some nuance to this. To me, the most important aspect of being visibly queer is to signal that they are safe. As you know, there are huge parts of our world where people like us are not safe being visible. I had a young member of the club question if he was safe just being himself, and I assured him that he was. He was able to ask me because I had made myself that person in the club who was clearly out. Of course there’s tons of elder queer folks in the club, but until you see or hear them talk about their partners, you may never know.

 

[leatherback]

God

is a societal construct

The more neutral each person is, the less strong the connection is.

Where did you get this nonsense from?

Our society has “pride” for this but it’s ruining this society.

YOUR view of society.
It is creating space for those that have been on the rubbish-tip of opinions for a long time

One of the most important reasons for having gender roles is procreation which is now decreasing amongst the latest generations. However, this wouldn’t be happening if society didn’t promote these silly ideas.

Nonsense. Increase of income reduces birthrates. Global statistics time and time again point this out. And next to this, womans rights improvements rduce birthrates.
Gender is not directly related to birth. Your fysical features determine whether a couple can have kids together. A befriended lesbian couple recently had a healthy baby boy due to donors.
Religion & white-male dominance is by and large a problem facing society.

gender confusion

Your opinion. And why do you care how someone identifies and whether that holds for that person into adulthood?

People, stop reflecting your personal preferences on other people. Give space to those that want to be free to decide what direction they wish to take life. Worry about your life mistakes choices and let others make their own

 

[Njyamadori]

All I did was point out that the rise of the LGBTQ community is causing a great negative impact in my generation that some of you guys have not yet noticed. And yes a Man and a man cannot produce a child. I didn’t come here to spread “hate” but to share my opinion and see what people think. I will answer some of the questions tomorrow if I have time.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Religion & white-male dominance is by and large a problem facing society.

Seriously?

All I did was point out that the rise of the LGBTQ community is causing a great negative impact in my generation

Seriously?

 

[PerryB]

All I did was point out that the rise of the LGBTQ community is causing a great negative impact in my generation that some of you guys have not yet noticed. And yes a Man and a man cannot produce a child. I didn’t come here to spread “hate” but to share my opinion and see what people think. I will answer some of the questions tomorrow if I have time.

Your attitude and ideas have a "great negative impact" on all previous generations of LGBTQ individuals. It has been difficult if not impossible to form LGBTQ communities until very recently. It has been difficult to find support or understanding from the mental health, medical or spiritual providers, or parents even! Why do you think the suicide rates for queer people have always been much higher than for straights?
It is only since Stonewall (Thanks to all he drag queens and Trans women!), since the American psychiatric profession changed the DSM to stop calling us 'defective ', since AIDS killed so many of us that people like Ronald Reagan and my mom had to recognize that they actually knew gay men, and since both gay men and lesbians asked to be able to defend our country that we have been granted the right to buy property together, to be with each other in hospitals while our partners were seriously ill or dying, to marry, to get survivor benefits from pensions or Social Security, etc. Etc.

And now you want to instruct us in the harms done to your generation because we are now granted the decency to be thought of as 'normal ' ?

 

[pandacular]

Your attitude and ideas have a "great negative impact" on all previous generations of LGBTQ individuals. It has been difficult if not impossible to form LGBTQ communities until very recently. It has been difficult to find support or understanding from the mental health, medical or spiritual providers, or parents even! Why do you think the suicide rates for queer people have always been much higher than for straights?
It is only since Stonewall (Thanks to all he drag queens and Trans women!), since the American psychiatric profession changed the DSM to stop calling us 'defective ', since AIDS killed so many of us that people like Ronald Reagan and my mom had to recognize that they actually knew gay men, and since both gay men and lesbians asked to be able to defend our country that we have been granted the right to buy property together, to be with each other in hospitals while our partners were seriously ill or dying, to marry, to get survivor benefits from pensions or Social Security, etc. Etc.

And now you want to instruct us in the harms done to your generation because we are now granted the decency to be thought of as 'normal ' ?

Thank you again for sharing your story and reminding us of our history. Whenever I realize just how recent the rights and recognize we have earned are, I can’t but think of Dr. King: “the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice.”

 

[Njyamadori]

Seriously?

Yeah. Let me restate myself. Teens in my generation are identifying as other animals such as dogs, cats, tigers, bunnies, etc…, they are going through irreversible surgeries to “change genders” that studies show that they will later regret, they wear inappropriate clothing besides their dog ears and cat tails, and the list goes on.

I apologize if this sound likes hate but please tell me how this is normal/healthy. I didn’t know that this was going to create an upset amongst you guys especially since this similarly happened when I said gods name in vain on this thread. And now when I use god in biblical terms people are now telling me god is a societal construct. I do apologize and if anyone wants to message me personally and possibly call to talk about how I’m so wrong I’m happy to do so. However, there are so many questions here that I don’t have time to answer every single one.

 

[Njyamadori]

is a societal construct


Where did you get this nonsense from?


YOUR view of society.
It is creating space for those that have been on the rubbish-tip of opinions for a long time


Nonsense. Increase of income reduces birthrates. Global statistics time and time again point this out. And next to this, womans rights improvements rduce birthrates.
Gender is not directly related to birth. Your fysical features determine whether a couple can have kids together. A befriended lesbian couple recently had a healthy baby boy due to donors.
Religion & white-male dominance is by and large a problem facing society.


Your opinion. And why do you care how someone identifies and whether that holds for that person into adulthood?

People, stop reflecting your personal preferences on other people. Give space to those that want to be free to decide what direction they wish to take life. Worry about your life mistakes choices and let others make their own

I have been an atheist for almost all of my life until about a year ago. I did use the word god just to say “creator” if you are either an atheist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Christian, etc… If you want to question the truth of god I’m willing to call you since I don’t want to make this thread too complex and have 50 more replies.

When you start meeting and interacting with more queer adults, it will become more obvious—you’ll see many pairings of hyper femme women in relationships with butch women (one of my favorite pairings btw ) and other such combinations.

When I talk about having a highly masculine person and a highly feminine that make up a string relationship it can be both homosexual or heterosexual. I was just pointing out that men are designed to be the masculine, and women to be feminine. Yes I agree with you guys that there are feminine men and masculine women. However, I feel like it’s no longer 10% but 50%(or at least where I live). Romantic relationships between the opposites create a much stronger connection between the two. The reason why I quoted @pandacular words is because even the LGBTQ community would agree with me. And it’s something that I totally respect.

I would say procreation is important for society. Yes if there are only 5-10% homosexual relationships there might not be a big deal. However, I assume anything about 10%-20% (estimated number) will start to create a great decline in population on top of heterosexual people in my generation that don’t even want to have any kids. That is EQUALLY as bad. However, it seems like about 40% of teens in my school don’t identify as straight. Also I’m going to say it again. A man and a man cannot have a baby. If everyone is gay then no one would be creating enough babies.

And Im happy to hear that your friends are able to raise a child. The only thing I would say is that having a mother and a father in the household statically reduces the chance of that child committing crimes. However, I don’t know to much about that to speak about. But I respect that they are raising a child regardless.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I apologize if this sound likes hate but please tell me how this is normal/healthy.

If anyone is unsure what it feels like to be the “other”, it feels like this thread. Pandafular started a thread called “the queer folks thread” and, for that reason alone, instead of there being really any contribution to the topic, has been subjected to this. For having the “audacity” to start this thread, pandacukar has been forced to become the spokesperson for all of gayness and defend the “evils” thereof. Is this what we want for our bonsai community (I won’t even bother asking what we want for society). Instead of finding all the evils in the world in someone else, perhaps we can just buy a mirror and consider that maybe we cause some evils as well. I for one want to apologize to pandacular for messing up this thread.

 

[leatherback]

Check your facts and drop your opinions.

to create a great decline in population on top of heterosexual people in my generation that don’t even want to have any kids. That is EQUALLY as bad.

I would say procreation is important for society.

Wrong. A reduction in global population is what is urgently needed and one of the grounds for deciding not to have kids myself.

Overpopulation is a major cause of biodiversity loss and smaller human populations are necessary to preserve what is left: ​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320722001999

and of course..
By March the USA had already consumed more than the sustainable amount of resources available, and started to overconsume.
The Netherlands hit that in April, and Germany by May. We are over-using renewable resources in an ever-increasing pace.

Country Overshoot Days 2024 - Earth Overshoot Day

A country’s overshoot day is the date on which Earth Overshoot Day would fall if all of humanity consumed like the people in this country.

overshoot.footprintnetwork.org

about 40% of teens in my school don’t identify as straight.

USA average 20%

Fewer teens than ever identify as heterosexual: CDC report

The health agency’s annual survey marked a record number of youngsters who do not consider themselves straight — approximately one in four students.

nypost.com

Regardless, why do YOU care how someone identifies. You do not have to live their lives.

However, I feel like it’s no longer 10% but 50%(or at least where I live).

View attachment 1717759160970.webp

Fewer teens than ever identify as heterosexual: CDC report

The health agency’s annual survey marked a record number of youngsters who do not consider themselves straight — approximately one in four students.

nypost.com

having a mother and a father in the household statically reduces the chance of that child committing crimes.

F-ing nonsense. Stop spewing unfounded politically/religious motivated untruths.

Pretty much all studies that have those conclusions have not taken into account that families with a gay parent have become a broken home because the gay parent has concluded this in later stages of their lives. It is very clear that stress over parents splitting, living apart, having new parents-parts move in result in challenges for kids resulting in long-term challenges in life.Once you take those factors into the equation, and study there is no difference whether the parents are homosexual or heterosexual in further life opportunities.

What does the scholarly research say about the well-being of children with gay or lesbian parents? | What We Know

Overview: We identified 79 scholarly studies that met our criteria for adding to knowledge about the well-being of children with gay or lesbian parents. Of those studies, 75 concluded that children of gay or lesbian parents fare no worse than other children. While many of the sample sizes were...

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu

I am going to step out of this thread now, because I get very angry and upset about the untruths and filthy unacceptance of people & their freedom to live their lives as they wish.

 

[rockm]

"Romantic relationships between the opposites create a much stronger connection between the two."

If there ever was a more telling statement of inexperience it's this...Do you actually KNOW anyone who has been in a committed long-term same-sex relationship, or hell even a heterosexual marriage that's lasted more than, say, 40 years? Let's just say everyone is human. Humans love one another, that bond is individual. I know PLENTY of male/female romantic relationships that hit the rocks after 1, 5, 10 or even longer. I know the same for gay couples. I also know many long term relationships that have lasted decades and decades and show no signs of breaking. People are people. The connection isn't dependent on what they do in their bedroom. Lasting relationships are not based primarily on the physical. Thinking so is silly.

 

[Gabler]

Straight couples ruined marriage long before gay couples had access.