the queer folks thread
Gabler
Masterpiece
I mostly said it to mess with @stoneshit.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I consider myself an ally of everyone except extremists. I've met people who make their sexual preference their main character trait. And quite frankly, I don't tolerate those people very well - both straight and non-straight - because I consider them to be extremists or actors. And I don't know which is worse.
I copied that opinion after a long talk with my brother who felt ashamed that his city annually honors his sexual preference, by parading thousands of caricatures of gay people as if it's some kind of circus. Because, and I've always agreed with him on this, because it's very easy for the general population to hate on people who are out of the ordinary. The best way to shut down a good argument is to make the presenter of that argument less of a normal human being. And the LGBTQ community is great at shutting down arguments like that. We see the same tactic in news reports about ecological actions, the same in war reports, the same in women's rights or BLM activism.. Just put a bunch of cooky people in front of a camera, let them do weird things nobody understands, and everything the movement has to say is null and void.
I remember bringing my friends over at home, and them saying "Well, I'm sure you're wrong about your brother.. He's not gay at all! He's like, a regular guy! He doesn't act or look gay".
And that was in 2004. These kids were so used to seeing flamboyant fags that it never occurred to them that that isn't part of the definition of being gay.
To me, having a sexual preference isn't a choice, but letting it define your entire behavior and character is a choice. If that's all a person can bring to the table, I'm going to sit somewhere else. Whether it's overly straight as in some Southern European or Arab cultures, or overly gay as in most western city cultures.
So I'd like to add some grains of salt to that statement of yours @Gabler . Not everyone who refuses to tolerate gay and lesbians is a homophobe, or calling sexuality a choice.
And I've often wondered from a scientific point of view: there are physically different structures in the brains of people who love the same sex - Dick Swaab, a Dutch neurologist proved that and got his windows pelted with bricks.. From gay activists no less! Who also said that being gay was a choice.. Weird times.. But I digress.. Would those structures also be responsible for behavior? I don't believe they are because they're in different regions. But still, if there was a proven relation, I might be more tolerant towards them.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I don't think my joke landed.
pandacular
Masterpiece
ah yes, the classic “I don’t mind gay people, as long as they act how I want them to.”
though it was delivered more politely than some others, your attitudes here are still revealing and hurtful, and should be at worst kept to yourself, but really are worthy points of reflection.
though it was delivered more politely than some others, your attitudes here are still revealing and hurtful, and should be at worst kept to yourself, but really are worthy points of reflection.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I don't think that's how it was intended. Of course there's a certain way gay people are supposed to behave. You don't get a free pass for murder just because you happen to be gay. By the same token, @Wires_Guy_wires seems to be saying you shouldn't get a free pass to be lewd in public just because you're gay. Sexual intercourse should be private regardless of whom it's with, and having sex with people shouldn't be a core personality trait for anyone, whether you're a f*ckboy, an incel, or a drag queen.
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KikurageOtomo
Shohin
Well, useless input from codgers aside. I ordered some Mume for next grow season from Brent and I'm looking forward to making them long term development projects. Anybody else road-mapping some excitement for next spring?
pandacular
Masterpiece
The only things I'm planning are starting a maple clump (trident or palmatum, not shre yet), Valavanis style, as well as picking up a few JBP’s from cmeg.
This will only be my second spring in bonsai, so everything is a project at this point.
Gabler
Masterpiece
You say that, and yet here you are.
Don't show up here to take shots at other members, and then complain when other members shoot back. If you can't take criticism, then don't dish it out.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
You have not been. However, your comments are taken at face value and the responses went accordingly.
Me, I would rather post things about bonsai and give all posters the respect they deserve.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
That's indeed my point. I have the same idea about people who make their favorite sports club, their pet horse or their motorcycle their main character trait. People should be more than just a gimmick.
My brother was scared to come out of the closet because he had a stereotypical idea of what it meant to be gay. And I think the world can do better than that. I myself had a huge culture shock when I spent 6 months volunteering at a queer safe haven. Because I too was under the assumption that the stereotype was true.
But it seems that the world isn't ready to hear discuss community harming stereotypes without ripping it out of context and taking it as an offence.
Gabler
Masterpiece
I don't think that was @pandacular's point either. There's a line of homophobic criticism that's something like, "It's okay to be gay, but don't act gay around me." It's similar to the line of thought that brought about policies like "Don't ask; don't tell." It would be easy to mistake your comments for something homophobic, even though it wasn't intended.
The Netherlands has a reputation for being very accepting of the LGBT+ crowd. Assuming that reputation is true, I doubt you encounter many people day to day who openly express anti-gay sentiments, whereas that kind of thing is still very common in certain parts of the U.S. It's no surprise if you're not familiar with that brand of anti-gay argument, and therefore it's no surprise that you did not anticipate that your post would be misread.
For what it's worth, I've always thought that more Christians would support Pride Month if instead it were called something like "Love Thy Neighbor Month," but there's a lot of meaning in a name, and there's an argument to be made that it wouldn't be the same celebration if the name were changed.
pandacular
Masterpiece
In queer theory, there’s certainly a lot of discussion about whether we should more or less “assimilate”. Things like removing fringe groups from Pride (kink, sadly quite often drag queens and trans people) or making efforts to “pass” more. I’m pretty adamantly against it.
I really don’t see what’s to be gained by changing anything to appeal to Christians. There are already plenty of groups—Episcopalians and Quakers come to mind—that are welcoming and loving, and in general I’m not a big believer in giving more respect than is deserved.
I do grow weary of this sort of discussion though…
I really don’t see what’s to be gained by changing anything to appeal to Christians. There are already plenty of groups—Episcopalians and Quakers come to mind—that are welcoming and loving, and in general I’m not a big believer in giving more respect than is deserved.
I do grow weary of this sort of discussion though…
KikurageOtomo
Shohin
This year I've started recording a lot of observations about some material of mine that have very little in the way of cataloging, at least in the English language. Katsura, Szechuan and Sansho peppercorns, Korean Fir and Currant to name the ones with the least information. Hopefully i have the foresight to transpose them digitally some time down the road when the body of material justifies it, otherwise with how mediocre my handwriting is I don't think anybody is going to be able to decipher anything from it. 
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Interesting to hear.
I am trying to understand what you are saying as well as earlier comments by @Wires_Guy_wires. And as commented before, perhaps the comment about the Netherlands having had a long history of fairly broad societal acceptance of different life-choices.
In high school I had a good friend who I hang out with lots. I learned afterwards that the whole school knew he was gay. All, except for me, because I never joint into school discussion/gossip. WIthout me knowing, this friendship made the whole school think I was gay. Point being: Sexuality cannot be deduced from the outside, however how you behave can provide pointers. I never knew he was gay OR STRAIGHT. It did not make a difference to me, as I have never been drawn towards men. He knew I was not interested in that way and we were just friends. A few years ago I ran into him. He told me how he appreciated that I never made a big deal out of it. I surprised him by telling that I did not know, and honestly, did not care either way. [as before, live your life the way you want to, as long as you allow me to do the same].
Then I know a few persons who are seemingly doing their utmost to ensure the whole world knows the minute they enter the room they are gay. Start flirting with every guy, making lewd comments etcetc. It is not acceptable for a straight guy to hit on every single girl. We do not appreciate it if a girl starts trying to seduce every guy they see. Think the whole MeToo movement, which is about interpersonal boundaries. Why would these boundaries be different when people are gay?
So in short, I think the argument was not about adjusting so people are not noticed / fit in, but rather: How do we interact overall.
Mind you, I have worked a lot in Latin countries, and I really enjoy the more informal interactions that I encountered in e.g., Brazil. And yes, then in a bar you do get hit on. Both by man and woman. And that is fine if a society feels that assertive flirting, trying to get close to a person is OK. But in most western countries we have gone all a-sexual in behaviour because of lots of rotten apple situations with people in positions of power misusing this.
Hope this makes sense.
PerryB
Shohin
This makes perfect sense. Different societies draw interpersonal boundaries and expectations in different ways. That determination then sets up power dynamics in different ways as well.
I'm reminded of a conversation with my father several years after I came out to him when he asked, "Don't you have any friendships with women?"
I replied that I have always had close friendships with women because they know that I'm not going to try to make a move on them, that the friendship is just that, and that I can be trusted with knowledge about them they could never share with a straight man. There was no power dynamic in my relationships with women.
Dad seemed to have an "Aha!" moment with that insight.
pandacular
Masterpiece
One of my closest friends in bonsai is a lesbian woman who is 50 years my senior. We live in the same neighborhood and have begun volunteering together (well, she's been doing it for 15 years) at the museum and carpooling together. Sadly, her longtime partner passed away at the start of the pandemic, and she is just recently recovering from that experience. On our most recent trip back from the museum, she opened up about how she's been doing, and expressed to me that this is the first time she's felt excited about doing bonsai since her partner died. Where before she saw a collection in disrepair from the time she's been recovering, she now sees new beginnings. Her words were that she is "leaving a long winter, and entering spring."
I really value her friendship, as I'm learning quite a lot about the experience of older queer folks in Seattle. Plus, she's just a lovely lady and has great bonsai stories and advice.
I really value her friendship, as I'm learning quite a lot about the experience of older queer folks in Seattle. Plus, she's just a lovely lady and has great bonsai stories and advice.
pandacular
Masterpiece
Lately, I’ve been thinking an awful lot about gender as a performance. I plan to write some thoughts on this in a more formal setting, but for now I’ll muse here semi-anonymously while the ideas are still fresh in my head after meeting many beautiful perform in gender wonderfully.
Gender perceived as a human construct, a cultural idea, is an idea that has been central to gender theory since de Beauvoir and has only increasingly gained steam through the third wave. If gender then is an act of culture, we should—we must—celebrate those who explore its limits and become artists of the way they use gender in their lives. All of us can further both our own flourishing and our understanding of others by more readily and actively engaging with gender in our lives. We must go beyond our conception of memetic gender and find our footholds where we may, and we can learn a great deal by rejecting ideas about default gender expression. I think this is one of the beauties of life that so-called straight folks can often overlook, that there is a way to choose the way in which we paint the canvas that is gender expression, as they assume that their gender identity is “just vanilla” and ignore that vanilla is such a beautifully rich and diverse flavor!
Anyone, this is all inspired by a gay crooner covering Amy’s cover of Valerie, which is just a deliciously deeply gendered performance that it bears writing about. More to come perhaps, and keep me honest on that.
Gender perceived as a human construct, a cultural idea, is an idea that has been central to gender theory since de Beauvoir and has only increasingly gained steam through the third wave. If gender then is an act of culture, we should—we must—celebrate those who explore its limits and become artists of the way they use gender in their lives. All of us can further both our own flourishing and our understanding of others by more readily and actively engaging with gender in our lives. We must go beyond our conception of memetic gender and find our footholds where we may, and we can learn a great deal by rejecting ideas about default gender expression. I think this is one of the beauties of life that so-called straight folks can often overlook, that there is a way to choose the way in which we paint the canvas that is gender expression, as they assume that their gender identity is “just vanilla” and ignore that vanilla is such a beautifully rich and diverse flavor!
Anyone, this is all inspired by a gay crooner covering Amy’s cover of Valerie, which is just a deliciously deeply gendered performance that it bears writing about. More to come perhaps, and keep me honest on that.
I just want to say that this is one of the most profound statements. I too am an "other" and people tend not to mind me either so long as I reject who I am.
Njyamadori
Chumono
As a teenager in high school I deeply feel that gender confusion and the roles(performance) of gender is going to have detrimental consequences. I want to point out that I am talking about Gender in humans. Yes I know some animals actually can change genders and it’s performances but humans can’t change genders and can’t completely change its performances.
In a heterosexual relationship there is the masculine and the feminine. This is also same in homosexual relationships. The more neutral each person is, the less strong the connection is. The only issue is that in homosexual relationships it’s just not possible (/or even healthy for society) to have a masculine man and a feminine man/ or a masculine women and a feminine women due to the working of the human body. Men have very different body parts than women. Men also have very different chemical properties and hormones than women.
God clearly created the man to be the masculine and women to be the feminine. When there is a relationship other than a masculine man and a feminine women then it’s not healthy at all.
Our society has “pride” for this but it’s ruining this society. My school has females that identify as males, and males that identify as females. But now we are forgetting that we are humans. There are lots of kids who identify as cats, bunnies, tigers, dogs, and other nonsense. One of the most important reasons for having gender roles is procreation which is now decreasing amongst the latest generations. However, this wouldn’t be happening if society didn’t promote these silly ideas.
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