Smoke
Ignore-Amus
We are talking about the other guy Walter Paul......
The fastest way to develop deciduous bonsai: Walter Pall's hedge pruning method explained
- Thread starter Rafael Najmanovich
- Start date
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
When we have Walter Pall as a member...anyone find it strange for a video telling us what Mr. Pall already shares? Personally would prefer deferring to his guidance than ones take on it.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Yes, and set up ambushes; been in one of those and it aint fun.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I know just what that feel like....get um here all the time. Your right, they ain't fun. I find them entertaining on occasion though.
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
On facebook a discussion has started about this video. i think I share one answer here:
"don’t you sacrifice delicacy of the branch tips by letting the growth extend 6 weeks?"
Well, much to most people's surprise the opposite happens. First I let grow freely with lots of fertilizing and watering. The shoots get coarse and often internodes are long. Don't worry. After six to eight weeks most of this is cut off like a hedge. Then usually the tree explodes into many more buds than it would have ever made otherwise. The second flush appears. it is much finer, long internodes are rare. you let this grow again freely another six weeks. Then hedge again. The third flush is very fine and dense. You then wait until the foliage is off. You have a problem. There is too much ramification. There are too my shoots. But most of them are delicate. Some in between which have long internodes. Some too fat. Many in the wrong places. Anyway now you edit carefully taking away everything that you don't like. The result is a MUCH denser tree with very delicate branches. And then the next year. After a few years you have a much better tree with very delicate ramification. In the meanwhile the nebari and the trunk got a lot bigger.
Big drawback: During all these years your tree did not look right most of the time. But in the end you will have a much better tree than you ever could have made with conventional methods over decades.
So this method is for developing raw material but also improving already very good masterpieces.
Why do the big name nurseries not do it? Why do the Japanese not do it? Because they want their tree to look good all the time . They need to sell. They cannot afford to have untidy looking trees in their garden. So this method is for amateurs who want to have the best trees around and are ready to pay the price for this. The price is that the are ridiculed for many years. - until the results cannot be ignored.
Funny: I have to explain the hedging method in a thread that started out to explain the Walter Pall hedging method but somehow it did not come across.
"don’t you sacrifice delicacy of the branch tips by letting the growth extend 6 weeks?"
Well, much to most people's surprise the opposite happens. First I let grow freely with lots of fertilizing and watering. The shoots get coarse and often internodes are long. Don't worry. After six to eight weeks most of this is cut off like a hedge. Then usually the tree explodes into many more buds than it would have ever made otherwise. The second flush appears. it is much finer, long internodes are rare. you let this grow again freely another six weeks. Then hedge again. The third flush is very fine and dense. You then wait until the foliage is off. You have a problem. There is too much ramification. There are too my shoots. But most of them are delicate. Some in between which have long internodes. Some too fat. Many in the wrong places. Anyway now you edit carefully taking away everything that you don't like. The result is a MUCH denser tree with very delicate branches. And then the next year. After a few years you have a much better tree with very delicate ramification. In the meanwhile the nebari and the trunk got a lot bigger.
Big drawback: During all these years your tree did not look right most of the time. But in the end you will have a much better tree than you ever could have made with conventional methods over decades.
So this method is for developing raw material but also improving already very good masterpieces.
Why do the big name nurseries not do it? Why do the Japanese not do it? Because they want their tree to look good all the time . They need to sell. They cannot afford to have untidy looking trees in their garden. So this method is for amateurs who want to have the best trees around and are ready to pay the price for this. The price is that the are ridiculed for many years. - until the results cannot be ignored.
Funny: I have to explain the hedging method in a thread that started out to explain the Walter Pall hedging method but somehow it did not come across.
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
Japanese Maple #14. First image 01/2014, second image as of 04/2019 . Show me how you could have achieved this progress with orthodox methods.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Dear Walter,
Just from watching my trees grow, and having a somewhat decent understanding of trees, I realize your method works as you say.
That being said.. I was wondering. Would a more detailed pruning after the first flush (6 weeks in) not give the same result? So.. Stick to the pruning schedule, but when pruning spend more time to decide where each branch has they buds, here and there deep-pruning branches that are already growing coarsely?
Is the hedging an efficiency choice, or am I missing the key point of the hedging, versus more detailed pruning?
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
The hedging creates branches and patterns that you would have never come up with yourself. In the end it looks MUCH more natural than a full man-made tree - because it grew naturally - with a little help from you.
I let the idiosyncrasies of nature happen to my advantage. This is much better than having planned everything. in the end it would look like someone planned everything, like a plastic tree, a stereotype, a cookie cutter tree
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Makes sense. And in the end a choice of preference; I am not japanese so I like a little disorder
Not at all Vance. I love this place and have been trying to learn as best I can from it. When searching through it, I have to determine if the info is any good or not. And yes it's hard to tell sometimes from my limited experience. I just don't like trying to research a topic and having to wade through pages personal attacks and bickering, often unrelated to the topic. So MANY posts end up just like this. I, Me, Me, My...
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
I'm sorry, but these paragraphs were easier to understand and faster to read than the original video posted above.
How is this different from clip and grow technique? Thanks, Mr. Pall.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
The only thing I don't get is why the OP is treating the forum like his personal blog? And just posting video links, like it's a Youtube channel? I enjoy discussions. This only seems to generate ire. Thanks @Walter Pall for going back over your method and theory in a thread about someone's video about your method and theory.....
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
No one is free from disorderMakes sense. And in the end a choice of preference; I am not japanese so I like a little disorder
Walter Pall
Masterpiece
I'm sorry, but these paragraphs were easier to understand and faster to read than the original video posted above.
How is this different from clip and grow technique? Thanks, Mr. Pall.
The clip and grow technique is all about Not using wire and just style a tree with scissors. This is supposed to bring out more natural looking trees and it does. You let grow a little and then clip again until the end of the growing season. Nobody speaks about strengthening an weakening a tree. But this method certainly does work and the trees are strengthened and weakened a lot though nobody mentions it. The trees get more ramification than with the orthodox early pinching method. But often branches are in awkward positions and this can only be rescued with wire which is 'forbidden'.
The hedging method is all about NOT pinching but letting grow much longer than you were used to and then cutting back more drastically than you think and strengthening the tree a lot and drastically weakening it. And then let the buds explode. You do this three times a year. At the ned of season you do careful detailed work. You certainly style that tree at the same time with all sorts of means. For basic structure you usually use a lot of wire. You can still hedge with the wire on. The hedging is not primarily for styling, it is for ramification, thickening and getting smaller foliage or needles. After the structure of a tree is set you may well forget about regular wiring. Then the hedging method is also for styling. As methionine it produces more natural ramification than if you set every single branch. At an advanced stage one can work with guy wires as I show it a lot.
In the end only results count. It does not matter what they say, what is done , what they are afraid of, what they warn you of. If in the end you have the better trees you have the better methods.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I couldn't quite put my finger on it but you did.
Good question.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
I think if he posted here regularly and contributed in threads in the traditional manner it might not feel as weird.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Agreed. I guess I just come here for discussion and throwing ideas around, not to view training videos. I know where to find those if I want them, seems like a forum to me is for interaction.
Colorado
Masterpiece
Here’s a ground-breaking idea: don’t click on the thread.
Colorado
Masterpiece
He has to be one of the “cool kids?”
Okay. Please explain to me how it would benefit this forum to have ONLY content from the same 5 people?
This “you can’t sit at our lunch table” mentality is irritatingly juvenile.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
"He has to be one of the cool kids?" Not at all - everyone can post here - even uncool kids like me. I wish he would post here more with pictures or progressions on his trees. If I liked what I saw it would be more of an incentive for me to view his content.
"Okay. Please explain to me how it would benefit this forum to have ONLY content from the same 5 people?" Much of what is posted in the videos are a retelling of existing information from other sites / sources or people. If I created a video of Rafael's take on Walter's method would it be classed as good content? What if I did the hedge shearing on say Quince and did my own wrinkle on why it was less effective using my own observations? I'd be interested in this because it's not regurgitation - it's unique insight using personal experience.
Maybe it was the rather pretentious sounding name he gave himself in his signature that irked me a bit too if I'm honest ... "Founding member of the Progressive Bonsai Collective". It sounds a little too close to 'bonsai assimilation' and the Borg for me to take it seriously?
Your final point "This “you can’t sit at our lunch table” mentality is irritatingly juvenile" is puzzling. I wish he would post here more rather than just posting links - I'd love to see pics of his other trees and maybe give newcomers the benefit of his experience. As I don't really know him much is he posting to increase knowledge or drive hits on YouTube? If I knew him more maybe I'd be better able to judge. I know @Vance Wood for example is genuine about Mugo and his knowledge of them is the best there is - he has no other agenda - so when I see his name and Mugo on YouTube you're damn right I'm going to click.
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