Sargent's Juniper = Shimpaku Juniper?

[milehigh_7]

Thanks g! I would agree that it is essential to keep poor Charlie's overalls from getting soiled.

 

[Vance Wood]

Actually, the "taxonomy" (from a scientific standpoint) stops after "chinensis" in the taxonomic name, Juniperus chinensis.

'Shimpaku' and 'Sargenti' and any other of the 68 cultivars listed in my 1990 edition of Dirr (there likely are many more by now) are all artificial, man-made plant names, developed over the years by horticulturalists who bred the basic J. chinensis for individual traits that they liked or wanted, or thought would be commercially valuable. (A cultivar name is differentiated from a variety or subspecies by the single quotes around the cultivar name -- like 'Sargenti.')

Taxonomy starts at the plant "Kingdom" level and wends its way down to Genus (Juniperus) and species (chinensis). There may be varieties and subspecies below those in the taxonomic world, but those occur naturally and may or may not breed true with the type "chinensis" plants. Any tree with diminished root structure need to be watched carefully that they are not over watered. This can be a problem in the early spring.

Cultivars are fertile one with another and the offspring are likely to be just plain old J. chinensis.

Totally immaterial, but I thought some additional confusion was called for here. <g>

That's the problem and the interest with the Shimpaku. First of all Shimpaku is not a cultivar it is a subspecies and does both occur naturally in nature and can be cultivated from seed if you want to take the time to do it. Within the subspecies Shimpaku there are two distinct variants: Itoigawa and Kishu that differ in the foliage and location where the natural trees occur. It is my understanding that for a number of years horticulturists have argued that the Shimpaku should be listed as a species separate from the Sargentii. However; when you encounter the Sargent's Juniper in the older bonsai books you are most likely looking at the Shimpaku subspecies and not the Sargentii. There have been several significant problems created by the differences between what the Japanese have ascribed to a tree and what Taxonomist have identified.

Yes Mark you are correct; you can kill a Shimpaku by working with it too early in the spring. In 2000 I had the privilege of talking with Kimura. He said that they need to be placed in full sun after repotting. Most of my Juniper work is done in the summer.

 

[Vance Wood]

Actually, the "taxonomy" (from a scientific standpoint) stops after "chinensis" in the taxonomic name, Juniperus chinensis.

'Shimpaku' and 'Sargenti' and any other of the 68 cultivars listed in my 1990 edition of Dirr (there likely are many more by now) are all artificial, man-made plant names, developed over the years by horticulturalists who bred the basic J. chinensis for individual traits that they liked or wanted, or thought would be commercially valuable. (A cultivar name is differentiated from a variety or subspecies by the single quotes around the cultivar name -- like 'Sargenti.')

Taxonomy starts at the plant "Kingdom" level and wends its way down to Genus (Juniperus) and species (chinensis). There may be varieties and subspecies below those in the taxonomic world, but those occur naturally and may or may not breed true with the type "chinensis" plants.

Cultivars are fertile one with another and the offspring are likely to be just plain old J. chinensis.

Totally immaterial, but I thought some additional confusion was called for here. <g>

That's the problem and the interest with the Shimpaku. First of all Shimpaku is not a cultivar it is a subspecies and does both occur naturally in nature and can be cultivated from seed if you want to take the time to do it. Within the subspecies Shimpaku there are two distinct variants: Itoegawa and Kishu that differ in the foliage and location where the natural trees occur.

Yes Mark you are correct; you can kill a Shimpaku by working with it too early in the spring. In 2000 I had the privilege of talking with Kimura. He said that they need to be placed in full sun after repotting. Any tree with diminished root capacity is vulnerable to over watering, especially in the spring. I have found that Shimpaku, though tolerant of a good deal of abuse, are slow to re-grow a root system. Most of my Juniper work is done in the summer.

 

[jk_lewis]

First of all Shimpaku is not a cultivar it is a subspecies

I think the RHS might disagree. I have found one or two references that call it a variety of J. chinensis, but they're old.

 

[rockm]

"Mark you are correct; you can kill a Shimpaku by working with it too early in the spring."

It also helps if you're inept and clueless with conifers like me...

 

[garywood]

Did I say convoluted world of taxonomy
Wood
http://www.aridlands.com/taxonomy.html
Just one of many

 

[Smoke]

Did I say convoluted world of taxonomy
Wood
http://www.aridlands.com/taxonomy.html
Just one of many

Hope no one brings up maples

 

[milehigh_7]

Did I say convoluted world of taxonomy
Wood
http://www.aridlands.com/taxonomy.html
Just one of many

Exactly what I was getting at Gary! Now to fix all the Quince and Crabapple classifications...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Exactly what I was getting at Gary! Now to fix all the Quince and Crabapple classifications...

Right...and while you're at it, what kind of maple is this???

 

[jk_lewis]

If you want convoluted taxonomic problems, take a look at Crataegus.

Most taxonomists have merely tossed up their hands in horrow and lump them all together.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Just to mix things up a bit, what is a Juniperus itoigawa? I've seen them called Shimpaku, but is that correct?

 

[Vance Wood]

Just to mix things up a bit, what is a Juniperus itoigawa? I've seen them called Shimpaku, but is that correct?

Yes. There are two seperate strains of Shimpaku, in fact I think there are three but I could be wrong there. I know for shure there is Itoigawa and Kishu.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Yes. There are two seperate strains of Shimpaku, in fact I think there are three but I could be wrong there. I know for shure there is Itoigawa and Kishu.

Thanks Vance!

So would it then be Juniperus chinensis 'Itoigawa'? Or am I way off and crazy?

 

[Smoke]

Yes. There are two seperate strains of Shimpaku, in fact I think there are three but I could be wrong there. I know for shure there is Itoigawa and Kishu.

These are not seperate strains of shimpaku but locations where they were identified of a shimpaku. Like mikawa black pine is not a seperate black pine strain but a location in Japan, 'Mikawa", where it was identified. Only pines coming from the Mikawa area can be called Mikawa. A mikawa black pine is a standard ole JBP growing on the banks of some stream running thru the Mikawa area of Japan. It would be written Pinus thunbergii 'Mikawa'. Drop the Mikawa portion and it is just JBP.

The junipers are Juniperus chinensis 'Itoigawa' or Juniperus chinensis 'Kishu' They are Chinese junipers, shimpaku, from Kishu Japan and Itoigawa Japan.

Like vidalia onions or walla walla onions, they are a onion from Vidalia, Georgia, or Corsica for the Walla Walla.

I have JBP's from Yamaguchi Bonsai Nursery in Sanger California. The seeds of those pines were hand carried from Awagi Japan. In Japan these would be known and prized as Awagi Pines. I do not quite know if I could call these pnes grown outside Fresno Ca. as Awagi pines. The seed came from Japan but they were germinated in USA, along way from Awagi Japan. Along ways from the area that gave these pines the characteristics that made them "Awagi pines"

While were at it...this same thing goes on with pottery also. A pot fired in the Tokoname region of Japan is called Tokoname. But what if the potter fires his wares in Tokoyo. Are they Tokoyo pots? If the same potter fires in both locations, are the pots inferior if fired in Tokoyo versus Tokoname?

Well over 30% of Tokoname pots are now made in China yet still sold as Tokoname pots?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Close, Juniperus chinensis is the Latin name. You're adding a Japanese description to the Latin name with Itoigawa, Kishu, Fudo, or Shimpaku. In the first two, it describes the geographical area where these Juniperus chinensis were found growing.

Brent has a good description of the variations here: http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/juniperu.htm

One of the best juniper articles is (or was...not sure where it went) here: http://www.bonsai-wbff.org/shimpaku/main.htm. I might have it printed to a PDF somewhere...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

These are not seperate strains of shimpaku but locations where they were identified of a shimpaku. Like mikawa black pine is not a seperate black pine strain but a location in Japan, 'Mikawa", where it was identified. Only pines coming from the Mikawa area can be called Mikawa. A mikawa black pine is a standard ole JBP growing on the banks of some stream running thru the Mikawa area of Japan. It would be written Pinus thunbergii 'Mikawa'. Drop the Mikawa portion and it is just JBP.

The junipers are Juniperus chinensus 'Itoigawa' or Juniperus chinensus 'Kishu' They are Chinese junipers, shimpaku, from Kishu Japan and Itoigawa Japan.

Like vidalia onions or walla walla onions, they are a onion from Vidalia, Georgia, or Corsica for the Walla Walla.

I have JBP's from Yamaguchi Bonsai Nursery in Sanger California. The seeds of those pines were hand carried from Awagi Japan. In Japan these would be known and prized as Awagi Pines. I do not quite know if I could call these pnes grown outside Fresno Ca. as Awagi pines. The seed came from Japan but they were germinated in USA, along way from Awagi Japan. Along ways from the area that gave these pines the characteristics that made them "Awagi pines"

While were at it...this same thing goes on with pottery also. A pot fired in the Tokoname region of Japan is called Tokoname. But what if the potter fires his wares in Tokoyo. Are they Tokoyo pots? If the same potter fires in both locations, are the pots inferior if fired in Tokoyo versus Tokoname?

Well over 30% of Tokoname pots are now made in China yet still sold as Tokoname pots?

Damn you type fast! Guess it's obvious who's hanging onto every word of the state of the union (or onion, as it were) address...

 

[milehigh_7]

Close, Juniperus chinensis is the Latin name. You're adding a Japanese description to the Latin name with Itoigawa, Kishu, Fudo, or Shimpaku. In the first two, it describes the geographical area where these Juniperus chinensis were found growing.

Brent has a good description of the variations here: http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/juniperu.htm

One of the best juniper articles is (or was...not sure where it went) here: http://www.bonsai-wbff.org/shimpaku/main.htm. I might have it printed to a PDF somewhere...

Brian, found your article using the wayback machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040106200707/http://www.bonsai-wbff.org/shimpaku/main.htm

I saved it off as pdf files as well just in case.

 

[milehigh_7]

Wow Brian! That article you talked about is really excellent! If anyone has not read it, click the link I posted. I used a website called the wayback machine that archives the internet.

 

[Bill S]

Not so sure about that Al, I have a Mikawa from Julian Adams, and unless it is mis Id'd, it has much smaller needles the a std. JBP, to the tune of you would swear it is a JWP. It is a 2 needel model, so I am guessing it is a black pine. It is young too, only about 3 years, and I did nothing to it this year so the new needles should have "reverted" to long if they had been reduced.

No expert on taxonomy by any means, but this is my experiance. So is it a sport?? Is a sport still the "SAME" as the original, as far as naming?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Not so sure about that Al, I have a Mikawa from Julian Adams, and unless it is mis Id'd, it has much smaller needles the a std. JBP, to the tune of you would swear it is a JWP. It is a 2 needel model, so I am guessing it is a black pine. It is young too, only about 3 years, and I did nothing to it this year so the new needles should have "reverted" to long if they had been reduced.

No expert on taxonomy by any means, but this is my experiance. So is it a sport?? Is a sport still the "SAME" as the original, as far as naming?

Now you're talking pines on a juniper thread...BUT...

Al is 100% right. It is just a Japanese Black Pine, Pinus thunbergii...from the Mikawa region in Japan; not a sport (sports are clones of mutated portions of a tree...like Seiju elm is a sport of Hokkaido elm) or variety...it's a regional identification.

Mikawa is on the island of Shikoku, below Hiroshima. It just happens that the JBP there have short, stiff dark needles, and the bark is just a little different. It's more plate-like and has a purple hue to it. You can read more about it at George Muranaka's blog; he gets his seed from the area:

http://muranakabonsainursery.blogsp...d-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=2

The pine in the middle is a Mikawa (left is a FAT Kotobuki, right is a nishiki). Although the sun is casting bad shadows in the image, you can see the texture of the bark and color of the foliage.