Potential World Class Tree? #2

[A Random User]

Now that the hats in the picture I'll be able to judge better.
Give me a few to mull things over please.

I took that picture for my buddy Smoke, after he whined about how I never posted anything or contributed to this site...
Funniest thing was that he commented on a couple of my threads regarding my trees a day or two before when I posted them... so go figure ???
I thought if I posed with them it would help him with his disabilities...

 

[M. Frary]

It always surprises me when you post the picture of you with the tree. It never looks that large in just the pictures.
You've been contributing quite a bit lately. I would say Al shouldn't have anything to bitch about except he isn't seeing as many foemina as he would like.
Lately,I'm not sure what a world class tree is. I think a tree like this certainly has potential. I also think you have what it takes to get it there.

 

[Paradox]

I cant help but wonder if this is wishful thinking?

Is it a nice tree, even great tree, yes. Same with the other one you posted.

World class potential? No.

World class to me is many of the trees Walter Pall has in his garden, many of Ryan Neil's trees and similar caliber trees from others. Many of the trees on display at the National Arboretum or similar collections, trees that have won the U.S. National Exhibition, trees that are good enough to compete in Kokufu Bonsai 10 or similar competition. Those are "World Class" trees.

 

[A Random User]

Was looking through my computer looking for something entirely different, and came across these photos of the deadwood of this tree, and thought that while I was at it I might as well post them up as well. Thanks! I do like the lizard in the first pic...

 

[sorce]

Hats off for the hat on!
Definitely changes things.
I saw a dude with that hat the other day, I felt like taking it off his head. "That's Sawgrass' hat. Bitch!"

Anyway. I now remember those pics.
This thing IS a monster.
The deadwood easily rivals that of those western conifers. Crushes them actually.

Circumstances put the Pacific Northwest as the American Bonsai head.
It could have just as easily been Florida, in which case, we would be all oh my God over these, BC's, and the like.

So, to stay with Leg Leg Arm Head.....
(Wu-Tang I'm still on topic!)

The Voltron of American Bonsai has to walk too! Florida is a strong leg.
Mike and I, the Great Lakes, remain an arm, with hand, with middle finger!
Poking in the nose of the head, stirring up snot!

Point is, we gotta work together.

World Class material.? With such climate differences, there is NO SUCH THING!

Bring a world class PNW tree to Florida, it won't be world class long!
A world class tree should be able to be shown across the world for more than a week. Impossible. No such thing!

Sorce

 

[Cadillactaste]

Does anyone else see the skeletal shape of a rabbit? I'm not saying it's not amazing in your eyes or of others...just not my cup of tea. The bones of this one I can't envision it's story. Maybe a different angle...and pot. But...that's what is good about bonsai. Not all styles are for everyone...but there is typically a style for someone.




If I may...I think removing some of the confusing dead wood...makes me think it's fallen over piece of wood that some how is struggling to beat the odds and wining. Maybe it's just the rabbit I'm seeing that throws me off. But...this is what I envision...not sure I would keep both Jin above the same height...but stager it so one is relatively shorter than the other. Get rid of the cascade pot and put it into a shallower pot and one more fitting to the size of the piece. That or get rid of the cascade and more of a raft approach. Tree fell over...and is struggling for life and such. It's the cascade style that really throws me maybe.

Edit: now where that live wood curls around meeting up with the Shari/dead wood. That is beautiful.

 

[fourteener]

I think a world class tree is like a world class athlete, rare. There is just something a world class tree has that the rest of them don't. When I see a world class tree, I can't stop looking at it. This is a great tree, but it seems like it has too much going on, so much competition for your attention that I don't mind heading off to the next tree in the show. It has no tie to the ground, like a jack-in-the-box, it just feels like a tree popped out, like the tree and the pot just happen to be there together.

I think this has the potential to be a show-stopper that isn't world class.

 

[M. Frary]

I would settle for show stopper any day.

 

[A Random User]

So, with this tree, seeing I guess we have reached the end of the discussion... the only real comments regarding what I hear folks saying is wrong is that the foliage scale is wrong and that they would like to see more negative spacing within the tree, so they could see what is going on.

I agree on both points, these are things that would greatly improve the design. I don't think however these are issues long term that would prohibit the tree from having the potential to become perhaps World Class material, however. ..

With time and ramification, the amount of branching will support more leaves, more leaves will mean a great reduction in the size of the scale of the leaves. This in turn will greatly contribute to the visibility of seeing more of the tree and add to the negative spacing.

As the tree grows as well, some of the newly formed branching could be used in the design in favor of some of the older branching, allowing for one to further open up the design.

Any other thoughts???

I would be curious to hear from Walter Pall and would appreciate any discussion he might be able to add as to what he saw in this tree that he did not see in the other, that gave him the feeling that this tree had more potential than the other. And hope he chimes in, I think it would be insightful as to what to look for when choosing material!

From my own personal perspective...

What I like about this tree and why I feel that this tree is the stronger of the two, in all actuality has more to do with the unique image of this tree and the story it tells...

I think this holds a lot of weight when determining what has the potential to become a World Class tree. It is one field that is not often covered to much when discussing what makes a good tree...

Bonsai, just as any Art is about story telling. The trees that often are considered World Class, are so because they have a story that pushes our imagination. Often, yes they are technically correct, the skill of the Artisan regarding how they have mastered the material is there... yet if one was to put three trees up for judging, all with the same technically advanced degree of craftsmanship, the one with the more story would always win... Why?

Because it is the story that gives the tree life. In all actuality, it is the story more than anything else that really speaks to us... unless one is of course is a technical junkie, and therefore the technical perfection is the Art itself.

What do I mean by this? For demonstration purposes, I will put this in another way...
If one is familiar with the great renaissance artists Leonardo Da Vinci, and Micheangelo, what is remembered about their history is talent, skill, and innovation. But, who is seldom remember is the third, Raphael Sanzio Santi... Why?

He was actually the most technically advanced of the three... and in all actuality, was better than the other two at the craft. He was known for this... it is often said his skill was so pronounced, that he could draw freehand a perfect circle... and it was tested with items that were circles. I have spent my whole life drawing, grew up the son of an Architect, and spent years upon years drafting... let me say that if this is true, this is an unbelievable feat. It is virtually impossible to do... So, then if his abilities were so pronounced, why is it that he is not remember? I mean his frescoes litter the Vatican and any number of countless buildings around Italy. And in fact if one was to examine as well his human figures, again another very challenging form to pull off, he was equal to Leonardo, if not better and blew Micheangelo away.

So, then why is it he does not hold more prestige? The answer for me, comes in the form of a question... that being the following... " Is it possible to be so technically perfect, that one looses feeling and emotion, and in essence an image becomes sterile?"

For some, there will never be enough perfection, for as I said before, this to them is the Art. This perfection, is the bliss that they are seeking...

For others, the perfection speaks more in their understanding that the world is not perfect. That in fact, it is these imperfections that make up the actual "Character" of who we are. They tell our story... they are the "baggage" that we all carry, including the trees we make... if one chooses not to exclude these features, they are what gives us life... because we as humans can understand, these things because we to may of happened to endure such events, and can feel the struggle to survive.

Now, with this said, it does not mean one is allowed to produce crap, and call it Art. And I am not just saying what I have said to justify my trees, or their condition.. I am not... The reasoning behind what I am saying, is that I feel this has a lot to do with our state if understanding here in the states...

What I see, us that for a long time we have been very busy as students of the Art, actually studying the Art... we have been for a long time examining what it takes technically here to do the Art... what I see now happening as of lately, is that we are now beginning to make the shift to doing the Art.

When one examines the recent activity of the Artisan Cup, a lot of folks were suprised at how few years the trees that won had been developed...
They had not had the years upon years of building, that we all have come to understand is needed to make a technically advanced tree... so why then we're these trees picked?
I think the answer lies more with the story that they told and perhaps the lack of story the others did not. This is just my own opinion.

Sorry, for those of you who do not like reading... to those that do, I hope you carry on the conversation. Thanks!

 

[MACH5]

What do I mean by this? For demonstration purposes, I will put this in another way...
If one is familiar with the great renaissance artists Leonardo Da Vinci, and Micheangelo, what is remembered about their history is talent, skill, and innovation. But, who is seldom remember is the third, Raphael Sanzio Santi... Why?

He was actually the most technically advanced of the three... and in all actuality, was better than the other two at the craft. He was known for this... it is often said his skill was so pronounced, that he could draw freehand a perfect circle... and it was tested with items that were circles. I have spent my whole life drawing, grew up the son of an Architect, and spent years upon years drafting... let me say that if this is true, this is an unbelievable feat. It is virtually impossible to do... So, then if his abilities were so pronounced, why is it that he is not remember? I mean his frescoes litter the Vatican and any number of countless buildings around Italy. And in fact if one was to examine as well his human figures, again another very challenging form to pull off, he was equal to Leonardo, if not better and blew Micheangelo away.

So, then why is it he does not hold more prestige? The answer for me, comes in the form of a question... that being the following... " Is it possible to be so technically perfect, that one looses feeling and emotion, and in essence an image becomes sterile?"

Exactly! The history of art is littered with technicians. Few are true artists, even in the face of technical shortcomings.

 

[A Random User]

I think a world class tree is like a world class athlete, rare. There is just something a world class tree has that the rest of them don't. When I see a world class tree, I can't stop looking at it. This is a great tree, but it seems like it has too much going on, so much competition for your attention that I don't mind heading off to the next tree in the show. It has no tie to the ground, like a jack-in-the-box, it just feels like a tree popped out, like the tree and the pot just happen to be there together.

I think this has the potential to be a show-stopper that isn't world class.

Does anyone else see the skeletal shape of a rabbit? I'm not saying it's not amazing in your eyes or of others...just not my cup of tea. The bones of this one I can't envision it's story. Maybe a different angle...and pot. But...that's what is good about bonsai. Not all styles are for everyone...but there is typically a style for someone.
View attachment 85307

View attachment 85308

If I may...I think removing some of the confusing dead wood...makes me think it's fallen over piece of wood that some how is struggling to beat the odds and wining. Maybe it's just the rabbit I'm seeing that throws me off. But...this is what I envision...not sure I would keep both Jin above the same height...but stager it so one is relatively shorter than the other. Get rid of the cascade pot and put it into a shallower pot and one more fitting to the size of the piece. That or get rid of the cascade and more of a raft approach. Tree fell over...and is struggling for life and such. It's the cascade style that really throws me maybe.

Edit: now where that live wood curls around meeting up with the Shari/dead wood. That is beautiful.
View attachment 85313

Thanks for the replies!
I was busy composing my book and didn't see your replies till after.

Seeing that both of your replies deal with similar issues, I felt it worth addressing both at the same time.

I understand your points, and would agree that if one might one to eliminate some of the deadwood, that makes what could be considered the tree to busy and demand to much attention, that this would certainly be a possibility. And for the most part a very easy fix... grab the saw and with a couple of cuts, you would be done.

However, one would have to question does the tree then lose the character that the tree as it sits now currently holds? At the expense of making a more visually calming appearance...

So, if one has a visually busy trunk as this tree has, how then can one counter balance this feel to make a still cohesive design, yet calming and grounded at the same time? The answer lies with the design of the rest of the tree...

One can either go on one of two ways...

They can either run with the very busy feel, and establish alot of this very busy feel in the design of the foliage, branching and padding... thus carrying the concept throughout the rest of the design. Often with a lot of conifers, this is what you will see. Which gives the appearance of a very harsh environment and a tree that has and is still enduring this harsh environment. In this case the busy design is carried throughout the tree completing the image and creating the harmony and peace that one might be searching for...

The other Avenue one might choose is to do the complete opposite... to design the branching, foliage and padding in a way that is not busy. This adds a sense of calming to the busy trunk, however one here runs the risk of the design not feeling cohesive. You have a busy trunk, and a not so busy rest of the tree... this in essence also adds to the tree a juxtaposition. A conflict of interest. Which is at the heart of all good story telling. Why? It tells us that even though something should be conforming to the path that is laid out for it as it's destiny, it is not doing this... it makes us want to learn more, right? Makes is want to question why it is doing this.

With that said, with broadleaf trees this is what one will often find occurring, at least in my neck of the woods... so, what does a tree designed in such a way tell the viewer? That the tree has had to endure a lot of suffering and pain, yet at the same time has had years of prosper. Which is in fact the case of the type of tree this is, and the environment that it lives in. It has years where nature has it's wrath on the tree and others where it does not.

This is the route I have chosen to go with the tree, because this is the tree's story. I have and will be purposely choosing to cover a lot of the deadwood with the foliage. Which is the reasoning behind only posting the first picture. This is the type of tree I want to be shown. Now yes, there will be more in the way of negative spacing in the final design, however this will be limited.

I want the deadwood to not be the focal point if the tree, but the added bonus. Obviously, one is looking at a photo and not in person, but when one looks at the tree in person, it in all actuality keeps one looking at the tree... one wants to see more, and thus looks into the interior of the tree and sees a lot of the deadwood and it's design within.

Now, as far as the pot...
I wanted to change the angle of the design of the tree to one I felt better suited the tree. I did not know what lied beneath the surface and if it could be done... and in all actuality the tree only had two major roots coming off of it, which had to be wired and bent to complete the angle change. Not knowing any of this, I picked the resin mica pot that it currently is in so I could in fact screw blocking into it to position the tree in this angle. At a future time a pot will be made for it, to take up the spacing.

One last thing I wanted to mention that I just thought of regarding the concept of this tree...

If one looks at mountains, in fact mountain ranges that are very rugged are in all actuality very new... because they have not had the years of erosion yet. Where mountains that are very soft, are actually older, and have had this erosion occur... this is a lot of the thinking of where I am headed with this tree... that it has had to endure the upheaval, and is now at peace... so I want this shown on the image of the tree.

 

[A Random User]

Wanted to apologize for all of my miss spelled words in my previous posts! LOL!

I am writing from my phone and often it auto corrects, or the buttons are so small, that I end up hitting the button beside it.

In the first post, I was saying that I didn't think that the leaf size would be a determining factor of the tree's quality, seeing that they will reduce through more ramification. Between my phone and the time limit now allowed, I am unable to go back and correct this and all of the other errors. I am an Artist after all, not an English major! Lol!

 

[A Random User]

Exactly! The history of art is littered with technicians. Few are true artists, even in the face of technical shortcomings.

Some of the best Blues guitarists did not know a thing about chords or notes and often knew little of how to actually tune a guitar. Crap, a lot of the early ones had made their guitars out if what was available. Yet, they had a message and a feeling that spoke to us.

 

[A Random User]

I cant help but wonder if this is wishful thinking?

Is it a nice tree, even great tree, yes. Same with the other one you posted.

World class potential? No.

World class to me is many of the trees Walter Pall has in his garden, many of Ryan Neil's trees and similar caliber trees from others. Many of the trees on display at the National Arboretum or similar collections, trees that have won the U.S. National Exhibition, trees that are good enough to compete in Kokufu Bonsai 10 or similar competition. Those are "World Class" trees.

Thanks for the reply, sorry I missed it and I am just now getting back with a reply.

No wishful thinking here... it has been stated that the tree was not World Class material, a question was merely asked if one saw the possible potential of the tree becoming a great tree and possibly a World Class tree.

It also was stated that the whole point of the exercise was to get people talking, critiquing and sharing their views of what it takes to make a great tree. It does not add up to much more than that...

I listened to what was said, folks shared their views, I shared mine. Does not mean that I am right and they are wrong, or vice versa... we are just talking and discussing bonsai.

So, your contribution to the discussion is that only trees that Walter and Ryan have and trees shown at some of the prestigious shows in Japan and at the Arboretum have the ability of making World Class trees because of their caliber.

Care to elaborate on what gives these trees "caliber"? This is a bit vague... is it the size if the trunks, the appearance of age, the pots and their presentation, the nice nebari, the branching and it's structure, the ramification and fine branching, the foliage, it's padding and placement, or lack of placement in the way of negative spacing, the story the tree is telling that I have spoke of, the tree's dimension and perspective, the way these trees play with balance and weight, the way the tree plays with light and dark areas within the foliage, etc... or just all of these things?

I don't have a problem with you stating that you think me posting my trees with the question of them having Potential to be a World Class tree is "wishful thinking", even though it was clearly evident that through my opening post this was not the case...

What I have a problem with is more the lack of insight to add any reasoning behind your thought. I am a big boy and can take the criticism. But, it would be nice if this criticism was more constructive with reasoning of logic behind such thoughts so that we all might learn and be better from the exchange. If one thinks I am crazy and my trees are not good, I don't have a problem with that, not everyone is going to appreciate the same things, think the same way, or have the same visions of what makes something good.

However, this is a site to come and communicate these differences, and the more one contributes to the conversation the more one comes off looking as if they are contributing to the conversation and less looking like they are looking to insult.

 

[jriddell88]

If I had my hands in some deep pockets I'd probably give some world class material a shot too.

 

[M. Frary]

If I had my hands in some deep pockets I'd probably give some world class material a shot too.

Better watch what you get a hold of in deep pockets. Could be a quarter roll or something else entirely.

 

[Cadillactaste]

May I ask one question? Is this a Tanuki Bonsai? Something about it seems that way. Please take no offense. I'm seeing a 2D photo to over first hand visual.

 

[A Random User]

If I had my hands in some deep pockets I'd probably give some world class material a shot too.

Are you saying you would just buy the world class material, or material that you could work on that would make a world class tree? No right or wrong answer, just curious and trying to understand your view.

 

[A Random User]

Better watch what you get a hold of in deep pockets. Could be a quarter roll or something else entirely.

Was watching Rocky last night, it was on the tube and couldn't be bothered looking for anything else to watch...
Your comment made me think of the Italian Stallion.

 

[M. Frary]

Like most here I don't have deep pockets so I make do.
I like what you do with your trees. You are building yamadori in a way with the junipers. I'm paying attention to all of the bending techniques you use the most.
Most times I don't post on your threads because you explain everything you do so thoroughly I don't need to ask questions.
I love Rocky films. Watch them whenever I come across one on T.V.