Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

[Brian Van Fleet]

You did not show me S#!++, you posted a photo here and there and made all sorts of proclamations about how superior this technique is and then made it out that I didn't understand because I didn't want to understand after looking at a photo of a tree in the garden from five feet away and supposed to see what the f#$($ you are talking about. It seems to be your method: Go to my blog etc. and so on, like you are too good to post here in the same way you are challenging me to do. I know you know how to do a video because we discussed it one day. I don't really care if you have a million hits on your blog, that does not make you right and make me wrong. Post it here or go away and leave me be.

So you decline the challenge? It's laughable that you say I'm too good to post here. By post count and likes, it's simply untrue. You're the one who's refusing. Got it. Guess we are done here.

 

[Vance Wood]

There is no stall, I spent the weekend at the bonsai show and did not have time. We had T storms yesterday and the mosquitos were nesting so I did not get to it yesterday. It is however, kind of difficult to condemn the process, on all levels, of pinching, while claiming that you do use it from time to time. Is this a pull back just in case you find yourself to be wrong? You and several others have for a couple of years now been condemning the process of pinching as being injurious to a tree. You have not been specific about doing anything other than cutting things off with scissors and----- never pinch it weakens the tree. That has been the mantra.

 

[Vance Wood]

So you decline the challenge? It's laughable that you say I'm too good to post here. By post count and likes, it's simply untrue. You're the one who's refusing. Got it. Guess we are done here.

Yes you post here mostly to too your own horn and condemn those who disagree with you. I am still going to post the video here if you post one of your own demonstrating how you do this. I am not going to an off site blog, face book post, scribbles on an outhouse wall on I75; You made the challenge here you resolve it here.

So you decline the challenge? It's laughable that you say I'm too good to post here. By post count and likes, it's simply untrue. You're the one who's refusing. Got it. Guess we are done here.

You sir are the laughable one, I did not make the challenge, I have never challenged anyone to do anything except post a picture of a tree. You sir came up with this "Challenge" I do not even recall accepting it, neither did I decline it. But when I do finally get the video up and posted, I will post here first. I don't have a blog nor do I want one.

 

[coh]

Forgive my newb question: If we only remove whole tufts, how do we maintain a clean pad (I.e. All foliage is exactly at the ideal profile)? There are two cases I'm thinking of here...
1) Most of the foliage is at the ideal length and eventually outgrows the profile (Arbitrary number: 60%). Do you remove all 60% and have to grow that back from eventual back budding?
2) The foliage is all different lengths, where we have an arbitrary 50% at profile and 50% shorter (any longer than profile are removed). In my mind this causes a sort of jagged pad. How do you smooth it out?

As new as I am, I really have no stance on pinching; I'm asking only for clarification. Thanks!

I think we've determined how to deal with "runners" but the above reflects the confusing part for me (and others apparently). If you have a well defined pad that is growing continuously larger, how do you maintain the size and shape. What do you remove and where do you remove it...if most of the growing points are expanding at the same rate? Is there a tutorial or video somewhere about that?

Do you just cut out/back selected tufts (thinning, essentially), leading to backbudding...and that backbudding replaces the longer growth that is removed?

I suspect this is not easy to describe in words and it is probably best to observe someone applying the technique(s) over time, but still...I think this is the issue for many of us who haven't been doing this for very long. Runners...yeah, let them grow, then cut them off or use them to develop new branches as depicted earlier. Steadily growing pads...how to apply these techniques to maintain them?

Chris

 

[PierreR]

You can find the answer to your question in post 1. Removing the runners balances the rest of the pad, the remaining growth is more even. There isn't a stub left, or if there is, it should have green growth, which will continue growing.

As for the call out, it is a challenge. There is a long history between Vance and me on this topic, which you can read in the links on the OP. Vance spends a lot of time arguing against this technique, but no time actually demonstrating what he does instead. You are welcome to not like it, just as I am welcome to explore the topic deeper. With a little effort, you may learn something as well. You're welcome.

How's the video coming Vance?

Thanks for the explanation Brian, I do appreciate it. I am here to learn, not pick sides or favorites. If I could ask for clarification, you refer to post #1 which describes very well how to trim a shoot back to profile. This I see and understand. It would leave a thicker stub on the profile line then the method Adair mentioned in post #126, where he recommends cutting further inside the profile. I also see that "pinching" growth as thick or thicker than your reference in post #1, would leave an untidy stub, which would likely bruise and brown from the process. I would think cutting to be the better option there as well.

In post #42, wireme shows a tip that has been pinched. I may be making an incorrect observation,, but I think the shoot that was removed, wasn't a runner as you have referred to in post #1, but merely a longer scaled twig(?) like the rest in the image, that has grown longer than he liked, and chose to pinch. Not a shoot at all. Adair mentioned that the pinched tip in that reference, will not grow, I don't understand how cutting would allow a different result? (This is what I infer from the explanation when cutting is recommended over pinching, or else why is this being discussed with such intent?)

Standing on the outside looking in, I see and read two similar, yet different examples, on two different growth types. Brian, do you cut all growth types, runners, and untidy tips, no pinching at all? I see a need for removing both types of growth, I would follow Brian's advice and cut longer runners without question. Where I still have question and possibly others here, is why cutting is better than pinching the type of growth that wireme references in his post. It looks tidy to me, and no crushed flesh, or brown ends. How is that incorrect? Or am I still missing something?

 

[Adair M]

Pierre,

As I stated before, the pinching Wireme's showed in his post is the old, obsolete method that had been replaced by the newer method of cutting back a little farther in the foliage.

Does pinching a few tips like this hurt anything? Not really. But, some practice this method exclusively and extensively. THAT's the problem.

Go see my thread "THIS is why not to pinch junipers". You'll see my photos of a tree that was pinched (sheared) everywhere. Granted, that's an extremely bad case.

Now, Vance is wrong that the method of no pinching is only 10 years old. No, its been used for decades. But, the INFORMATION has only recently been distributed. You see, its been done this way the bonsai professionals in Japan for decades, but here in the USA, it has remained relatively unknown.

Its in the Japanese magazines. I can't read the text, but I can see the pictures. I have some dated back in the 80's where it's depicted.

It's only been in the past 10 to 15 years that foreigners have been allowed to apprentice at the professional bonsai nurseries in Japan. And since then, the information is getting out. And the Internet helps spread the info faster.

The thing about books is the info contained a book is static. The printed pages can't get updated. So someone who picks up an old book is getting old information. Let's face it: John Naka's books, as wonderful as they are, are obsolete.

As I stated before, Brian and I are working with people who have shown at the very pinnacle of the art. They show us how it's done, and we're trying to share it, to elevate the art here.

Here are a couple pictures of what extensive pinching does:

 

[Vance Wood]

This tree was not pinched properly. You can see where it was torn and I am thinking torn extensively, as well as being ripped. This of course is the result of that kind of impatience. If the ends were broken off you would not have brown ends. If my trees looked like this I would look for a different method too, it's obvious.

 

[Vance Wood]

OK----you have gone to length to find photos of growth that has been ruined. Now lets see that kind of effort in posting pads and growth that have been done the right way. Please don't tell me I have shown you before, do us all a favor and do this contextually without links to blogs, or other things. You guys challenged me here you put the evidence up here.

 

[M. Frary]

pinched (sheared)

2 completely different things. Pinching shouldn't be confused with shearing.

 

[PierreR]

Adair, thanks for the explanation, but is still missed my question a tad. The two photos show two different types of growth, Brian address's the runner/shoot. Showing the cutting with scissors. Wireme shows a pinched tip. Where would/should/how is this type of growth to be cut with scissors, and be as neat and tidy as this image shows? I would suspect that this looks cleaner, and more natural than a straight cut edge. Could you post a picture or two so I/we can see what you are referring to, and how it looks before and after possibly?

In this image, this to me looks like a worst case scenario.

I believe I read that there is young and mature growth on this image, the result of poor technique. So now with this image, we have the two images I mentioned with two different types of growth, and your image with two different ages tossed into the discussion. This is likely a more in depth topic now, then just the pinching/cutting/brown tip thread that this began as... I still want to know the differences, see examples, and grasp the proper way to do things. I don't want to be seen as arguing, as I have no experience to argue about, there just has been more added to this thread since it started, leaving me and I suspect others more confused then when it began. Any clarification would be beneficial to a lot of us I suspect.

Thanks again for your time guys, I dont ask these questions lightly.

 

[Adair M]

I'm not at home right now, but I will post a photo of a tree that has never been pinched.

"Juvenile" vs "mature" (scale) foliage isn't about the age of the foliage. The terminology we use would imply that... No, the "juvenile" foliage is the spikey foliage that results from improper management. The juvenile growth results from the tree being stressed. It's just a different form.

 

[Vance Wood]

I suspect in the end it could come down to Kishu vs. Itowagawa(sp?) You do not have the constant problem with the annoying appearance of Juvenile growth with the frequency seen in Itowagawa. The picture does demonstrate something I usually do not have to deal with; juvenile growth.

 

[Adair M]

Itoigawa does revert to juvenile much more readily than does Kishu.

Ok. Here's my Kishu juniper. I last thinned it out about a month ago using the techniques I try to describe. No pinching. It did "flower" very strongly about 2 months ago, all over. Those tips went brown. To remove them, I gently caressed the foliage with my fingers. Kinda rubbed it a bit. The brown bits fell off. I didn't have to, they would have fallen off on their own. It also made "berries". Tons of them! These I did pull off with my fingers.

But I did not pinch any foliage.





Some things to consider:

Up close, the foliage looks "thin", that is, you can see thru the pads to the branches below. Light and air flow freely thru the pads.

But, from a bit of distance, the pads look "full". See the first photo. The tree looks full, does it not? No hanging foliage, all the green is above the supporting branches.

Also note that sunlight is able to pierce thru the canopy. See the dappled sun on the trunk. This keeps the inside foliage alive and healthy.

I'm sorry, I don't have any action shots of the pruning process.

 

[Adair M]

2 completely different things. Pinching shouldn't be confused with shearing.

Extensive pinching (grip and rip) has the same effect as shearing.

 

[Giga]

Yep it is a little childish. But occasionally amusing and informative. As for the history as I understand it it's something like this. Brian Van Fleet (BVF) and Vance wood are both good at bonsai. Vance is an older guy from Michigan who can be moody at times. BVF can be really pompous and obnoxious so they argue from time to time.



Above quote is classic BVF. He knows his stuff but says things that make you want to give him a wedgie.

LOL maybe this should be in the new member handbook, though I tend to side with Brian for 2 reasons. One we have the same name so there's that lol, two he always backs up his techniques and usally gives good advice. Vance does great work too but tends to be addicted to the drama and pontificates about mugos as the black sheep of bonsai.

 

[Smoke]

Extensive pinching (grip and rip) has the same effect as shearing.

I think a little background into this grip and rip thing you speak of and pinching needs to be clarified. I don't think anyone including Vance has advocated grip and rip. So maybe we could eliminate that term all together.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Ok. Here's my Kishu juniper. I last thinned it out about a month ago using the techniques I try to describe. No pinching. It did "flower" very strongly about 2 months ago, all over. Those tips went brown. To remove them, I gently caressed the foliage with my fingers. Kinda rubbed it a bit. The brown bits fell off. I didn't have to, they would have fallen off on their own. It also made "berries". Tons of them! These I did pull off with my fingers.

That's interesting it made pollen cones (male "flowers") and seed cones. Junipers are usually dioecious they are either male or female.

 

[Adair M]

That's interesting it made pollen cones (male "flowers") and seed cones. Junipers are usually dioecious they are either male or female.

All I know it made zillions of "berries". And zillions of little flowers. Maybe the brown tips I brushed off didn't pollinate to make berries, I don't know. I'm really not interested in the sex life of my junipers. Whatever they want to do while I'm not looking is fine with me.

 

[Adair M]

I think a little background into this grip and rip thing you speak of and pinching needs to be clarified. I don't think anyone including Vance has advocated grip and rip. So maybe we could eliminate that term all together.

Smoke, you forget that you live in an area of the world that is pretty sophisticated when it comes to bonsai. I, on the other hand, live where they filmed Deliverance.

Remember, that example tree that started all this conversation was "maintained" by a local who thought he was a "Master".

 

[AppleBonsai]

I think a little background into this grip and rip thing you speak of and pinching needs to be clarified. I don't think anyone including Vance has advocated grip and rip. So maybe we could eliminate that term all together.

...Unless it is in relation to non-bonsai situations...