Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

[aframe]

For the next video I'd like to see Vance and BVF bare knuckle box, or at least arm wrestle. Or if some one sneaks up on BVF at a bonsai event and gives him a wedgie and posts that video I'll mail him or her 20 dollars.

Just as he's claiming his juniper that bjorn styled and BAM! - wedgie up to the arm pits. I really cant stop laughing.

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[dirk hoorelbeke]

I had to think for a minute as to which Shimp I actually posted. On this tree the crown is too thick. The tree has not been worked this year, it is about to. I may video the labor but I will not be buffaloed into doing so. This is a process that should be put up so we shall see.

Vance, this is part of the answer i was after when i asked "how often can you do this technique". When this is actually the first maintenance of this year, we can state that the growth nice and full but is not fantastic strong (anymore). It doesn't need to be when a tree is more refined since bonsai is a balancing act. It really is a great complement for your feeding and watering when you can hold a tree that is growing slow healthy for a long time. I might be wrong, but i think to remember that in one post you said you do not keep trees pinched and well manicured all the time. Sometimes you need to let them grow when the moment comes they becoming weak. We tend to all balance at that point. We build it up, then we try to hold it there, and when we are good enough we have a show-able tree for "a few" years. Then the tree loses vigor, you let it recuperate and you start over the building up process but with better bones already. The way i learned it is that the pinching might be done in the before-last year when you feel a portion of the tree is growing a bit to strong and your tree has some power left. A top-quality tree should have only small growing tips all over the place, not a single pale green tuft, so everything should be new growth. Some trees look dense at an exhibition and you can actually see several of these trees will not be show-worthy for the next 3 or 4 years because what is left on the tree to let it look full is not-growing foliage.
To be absolutely clear i do not advocate pinching in the up-building process of a tree. I've learned to see it as the final step in decreasing the vigor of the tree in preparation to an exhibition.
We all know the effort you take to make video's and i guess we all learn something from it and i guess nobody dislikes them. In bonsai there are always different options and visions. The effect will be sometimes slightly different and will affect the health of the tree. Bonsai is a balancing act and some are better on the slippery slope.

 

[wlambeth]

I think what this thread teaches is it is better to get to doing rather than reading and watching!

 

[Adair M]

Here are some photos that Haruyosi posted on Facebook. His only comment was he just finished cleaning up this shimpaku:





Now, that's all he posted.

The final image shows the little tree thinned out, cleaned out, and all the canopy tips appear untouched. None appear to have been pinched.

The second and third photos show only scissor work.

 

[M. Frary]

But maybe pinching is his dirty little secret.

 

[Adair M]

But maybe pinching is his dirty little secret.

Really?

Look closely at the final photo. You see there are a few growing tips that protrude a bit from the profile. Not a lot, mind you, but enough that a "pincher" would probably take them off.

The fact they remain says to me he's not a pincher.

 

[leatherback]

But maybe pinching is his dirty little secret.

That's funny

 

[Vance Wood]

Here are some photos that Haruyosi posted on Facebook. His only comment was he just finished cleaning up this shimpaku:

View attachment 79787

View attachment 79788 View attachment 79789 View attachment 79790

Now, that's all he posted.

The final image shows the little tree thinned out, cleaned out, and all the canopy tips appear untouched. None appear to have been pinched.

The second and third photos show only scissor work.

I really don't want to argue this point further but we can look at this tree and see what we both want to see. If you look at the left side of the finished tree you will notice some thing that is odd. There seems to be the existence of some straight lines in the profile. I know well enough to know that you don't wind up with a profile like that just by clipping out the new growth the way it has been described, and sitting back praising God that every thing turned out exactly the way you wanted it to.

This is the main problem with he clip only technique, you kind of have to take the profile the process gives you. If you are pinching, as I have described it, you can get the profiles you want not the profiles you are given; it is a matter of control. Look at the right side of the tree, why does this part of the tree lookless manicured? Probably because in the artist's mind it did not need to be so manicured. In fact; a manicured profile might have made the tree more contrived looking; therefore it was not pinched. See; I disagree I see pinching, pinching done properly.

Believe me you will not get brown ends if this is done properly. I will be working on some more trees and will I hope be able to demonstrate more clearly what I am talking about.

 

[coh]

Here are some photos that Haruyosi posted on Facebook. His only comment was he just finished cleaning up this shimpaku:

Now, that's all he posted.

The final image shows the little tree thinned out, cleaned out, and all the canopy tips appear untouched. None appear to have been pinched.

The second and third photos show only scissor work.

Why don't you just ask him if he pinched any tips? That would seem to be the way to settle the question, at least concerning this particular juniper.

 

[M. Frary]

Really?

Look closely at the final photo. You see there are a few growing tips that protrude a bit from the profile. Not a lot, mind you, but enough that a "pincher" would probably take them off.

The fact they remain says to me he's not a pincher.

Meant to just lighten the mood bud. At this point I don't care anymore. We've already hashed this particular subject out don't you think. There will be some who just use scissors and some who use scissors and pinch. I believe it's all actually a atter of preference. As shown pinching the proper way does no harm. Just shortens up a scale hare and there.
We all have dirty little secrets. Some dirtier than others is all.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, then. How about a video? Everyone likes videos, right?

Here's a link to a video by Graham Potter. On a juniper:

The detail work on the foliage begins about 10 minutes into the video, after it gets wired up. The only "pinching" I see is where he's pulling something off the bottom of a branch, or maybe he's already cut it off, and he's having to remove it from where it fell.

At any rate, I see no evidence where he pinches any foliage at or near the outline.

(It's really hard to prove a negative!)

 

[Adair M]

Why don't you just ask him if he pinched any tips? That would seem to be the way to settle the question, at least concerning this particular juniper.

Haruyosi is Japanese. I doubt he speaks any English.

Dario gets these posts, and "shares" them on Facebook. I'll see if I can figure out a way to ask.

Edit: I posed the question I the "comments" section of his Facebook post. If I get a reply, I'll share it.

 

[coh]

I looked at his (Haruyoshi's) facebook page and saw the juniper you posted. The description is in english for what it's worth.

That said, I have no problem believing he could have obtained that profile just using scissors.

 

[michaelj]

Believe me you will not get brown ends if this is done properly. I will be working on some more trees and will I hope be able to demonstrate more clearly what I am talking about.

If you want to demonstrate that clearly, what would probably be clearest would be a clean close photo of the shoot(s) you're going to pinch, a close shot or two showing your fingers doing the pinching, and a shot of what the tips look like after. If you want to be really persuasive, a few close up photos of some tips you've pinched in recent weeks and months would also be informative. I don't think that last part would matter, though, if it turns out you've been pinching off only complete shoots. If you're hell bent on video rather than photography, just keep in mind that the way you've shot these before didn't clearly show what's happening down inside the foliage where you're working, so you'll need a different angle and/or distance or your demonstration won't be clear.

 

[michaelj]

...I believe it's all actually a atter of preference. As shown pinching the proper way does no harm. Just shortens up a scale hare and there.

atter? hare and there? When you call out others for typos that aren't even errors and suggest that they go back to 6th grade and get GEDs, you should probably put ms in your matters and more than one e in your heres first.

 

[Vance Wood]

Ok, then. How about a video? Everyone likes videos, right?

Here's a link to a video by Graham Potter. On a juniper:

The detail work on the foliage begins about 10 minutes into the video, after it gets wired up. The only "pinching" I see is where he's pulling something off the bottom of a branch, or maybe he's already cut it off, and he's having to remove it from where it fell.

At any rate, I see no evidence where he pinches any foliage at or near the outline.

(It's really hard to prove a negative!)

It is a point that is very unclear regardless of what side of the discussion you come down on. Unless he has a video detailing how he dresses out a Juniper in detail we will not know for sure. However what does it prove?? I don't care if he pinches or does not pinch, I don't care if you pinch or Brian, or Bjorn, or Hagedorn, or Ryan, or Eddie Munster pinches, what does it prove. I have not been convinced not to pinch. I like the results I get and the trees I treat this way are always looked on favorably without criticizm or mention of pinching. As to michaelj: Not that you deserve an answer here is what I think any way. No matter what I do, no matter what I post, not matter how detailed, no matter how well produced, it would not be good enough for you. Let me see some of your Junipers.

 

[Vance Wood]

If you want to demonstrate that clearly, what would probably be clearest would be a clean close photo of the shoot(s) you're going to pinch, a close shot or two showing your fingers doing the pinching, and a shot of what the tips look like after. If you want to be really persuasive, a few close up photos of some tips you've pinched in recent weeks and months would also be informative. I don't think that last part would matter, though, if it turns out you've been pinching off only complete shoots. If you're hell bent on video rather than photography, just keep in mind that the way you've shot these before didn't clearly show what's happening down inside the foliage where you're working, so you'll need a different angle and/or distance or your demonstration won't be clear.

I don't really care what people believe at this point.

 

[Adair M]

Ok, one more video. This is from Bjorn's video series: The bonsai art of Japan.

Now, if you want to just see the juniper pruning, skip ahead to the 8 minute mark.

In this video, Bjorn shows a close up of a dense portion of foliage that has outgrown the desired profile. And he says, "we could just pinch this off, but it will leave brown tips. So the better way is..." And he shows it in perfect detail.

This is the best video I have found describing what I'm talking about.

 

[Vance Wood]

In #' 819-845 he talks about shima and states that we could actually RIP through these but we would wind up TEARING THROUGH THIS GROWTH AND WIND UP with brown ends. This is true but that is not pinching that is ripping his words. That actually could be pinched depending on how woody the shima is. However it would be easier to do this with scissors and more accurate. This still does not prove the point that you never pinch. He may never pinch but I am going to do it the way I have been doing it I STILL DO NOT SEE A REASON TO SWITCH.

I'm sorry Adair but no body who cares about what they do would do this with a Juniper unless they just wanted to show the thing the next day and thought they could get a way with it, ----or thought they could sell it. We had a juniper at our show that was either ripped or sheared and it looked like it. My trees do not look like that regardless what mj says in his ultimate wisdom.

I also realize that I am disagreement with one of Bonsai's big masters of the moment and he is good but he is not God, and on this subject he does not convince me-----sorry.

 

[Adair M]

I don't really care what people believe at this point.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Vance. Personally, I love to learn new things and improve my techniques.