OMG! Black Grapes from Italy!!

[Aiki_Joker]

Wow. What should I do with these? Looks like they are old producers(?) The first thing is to clean up the scale on them then let them recover a bit! The exfoliating bark is white with these critters underneath! The buds look cotteny white too. Not sure if they are supposed to be like this or not ha ha ha (!?). Will have to remove most of that beautiful bark unfortunately

But what then? I'm thinking about cutting that trunk to just the trunk and seeing what happens... not sure on it and advice would be appreciated!

 

[Aiki_Joker]

What styles are grapes good for?

 

[sorce]

Pick a trunkline!

I think of you don't take them back to one trunk now, they are always going to have tells of the Vinedleabra.

Looks like they're ready to give you lower branches already anyway!

Sounds like wooly aphids?

Sorce

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Well with any grape I am familiar with, you can chop them down to the ground and they will bud back with strong growth as long as the roots are strong and they get plenty of sun. Because these grapes came from a vineyard, they are styled as espalier and you should probably cut them down to one trunkline... or shorter.

For what it's worth, grapes are often grafted on different root stock and it may be hard to see the graft point. If you cut TOO far you may no longer have black grapes - they may be something else entirely or may not fruit at all. Don't know if that is a consideration or not.

 

[justBonsai]

Nice grapes. I've seen them in shows occasionally and make for interesting looking bonsai.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Pick a trunkline!

I think of you don't take them back to one trunk now, they are always going to have tells of the Vinedleabra.

Looks like they're ready to give you lower branches already anyway!

Sounds like wooly aphids?

Sorce

Thanks scorce! Yes slot of mealy bugs (wooly aphids).

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Well with any grape I am familiar with, you can chop them down to the ground and they will bud back with strong growth as long as the roots are strong and they get plenty of sun. Because these grapes came from a vineyard, they are styled as espalier and you should probably cut them down to one trunkline... or shorter.

For what it's worth, grapes are often grafted on different root stock and it may be hard to see the graft point. If you cut TOO far you may no longer have black grapes - they may be something else entirely or may not fruit at all. Don't know if that is a consideration or not.

Interesting in the graft scenario. Appreciated

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Interesting in the graft scenario. Appreciated

This may be too much information, but being from California (wine country) we are very sensitive about our grapes. Many varieties from Europe are extremely vulnerable to native American pests - while domestic American grape stock is highly resistant. The solution is to graft European grape scions on American root stock. This has become a global practice because in the 1860's our insect pests (from America) were inadvertently introduced to Europe and almost wiped out the French wine industry.

The irony: many early American vineyards used imported European grapes and were almost wiped out when the same pests infected local vineyards, while vineyards using native American grapes were immune...

Now almost all wine grapes across the world are grown on American root stock.

How the Great French Wine Blight Changed Grapes Forever

 

[Aiki_Joker]

This may be too much information, but being from California (wine country) we are very sensitive about our grapes. Many varieties from Europe are extremely vulnerable to native American pests - while domestic American grape stock is highly resistant. The solution is to graft European grape scions on American root stock. This has become a global practice because in the 1860's our insect pests (from America) were inadvertently introduced to Europe and almost wiped out the French wine industry.

The irony: many early American vineyards used imported European grapes and were almost wiped out when the same pests infected local vineyards, while vineyards using native American grapes were immune...

Now almost all wine grapes across the world are grown on American root stock.

How the Great French Wine Blight Changed Grapes Forever

Not at all, this is great info, thanks! I didn't know this history. I hear with newer chemistries like Movento it is possible to control pests more effectively and negate the requirement to graft in some areas.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

This may be too much information, but being from California (wine country) we are very sensitive about our grapes. Many varieties from Europe are extremely vulnerable to native American pests - while domestic American grape stock is highly resistant. The solution is to graft European grape scions on American root stock. This has become a global practice because in the 1860's our insect pests (from America) were inadvertently introduced to Europe and almost wiped out the French wine industry.

The irony: many early American vineyards used imported European grapes and were almost wiped out when the same pests infected local vineyards, while vineyards using native American grapes were immune...

Now almost all wine grapes across the world are grown on American root stock.

How the Great French Wine Blight Changed Grapes Forever

Not at all this is great info, thanks! I hear with newer insecticides like Movento it is possible to control root pests and use unrated stock in

 

[JoeR]

Why would you have to remove the bark??

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Why would you have to remove the bark??

It is not absolutely required, but the bark was protecting these parasites. I wanted to remove as many of these parasites as possible, so had to strip the bark. It is a somewhat common practice in Europe.

It is like dead leaves and branches, the loose bark provides spaces for insects and other pests to take hold. It will be back in another few years. Alot of vines have this exfoliating bark.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Are there any other ways to clear mealy from under the bark JoeR? Would be interested because the bark looks really amazing on these vines

 

[sorce]

I'd go with a mix of squishing and ......

Wrapping the trunk in packing film, water tight, and try to drown em.

Or fire.....

A little fire is always fun.

Adds character!

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

Are there any other ways to clear mealy from under the bark JoeR? Would be interested because the bark looks really amazing on these vines

No idea, but they're worthless without the bark IMO!

 

[zelk]

Spray it with orthene 97 or something similar before any bonsai work. I like the pick 1 main trunk idea from BNut. In the 2nd pic, I really like the left trunk as the keeper as it makes a cool bend in the trunk line and would leave both cuts relatively hidden from that perspective.

 

[Aiki_Joker]

I'd go with a mix of squishing and ......

Wrapping the trunk in packing film, water tight, and try to drown em.

Or fire.....

A little fire is always fun.

Adds character!

Sorce

Need to get the blow torch on the go!

 

[Aiki_Joker]

No idea, but they're worthless without the bark IMO!

Yes they do look a bit bare but it will be back in a few years apparently it kind of flakes off.

By the time they have the main upright branches the bark should be back... if they survive ha ha ha.

Going to chop them this weekend

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Spray it with orthene 97 or something similar before any bonsai work. I like the pick 1 main trunk idea from BNut. In the 2nd pic, I really like the left trunk as the keeper as it makes a cool bend in the trunk line and would leave both cuts relatively hidden from that perspective.

You might be right there. I didn't thing of this. I was going to cut both off. But as you say I have to think of the scarring

Can't wait to appraise things at the weekend! Busy week so far need stress relief!! Ha ha ha ha :0)

 

[Aiki_Joker]

Here is a before and after. Doesn't look too bad. I thought it would be worse TBH.


These are knarly as hell! I'll try and get some cuttings they will make interesting shohin if I can get the branch scale right. Apparently vigorous growers.