New Bonsai Rule

j evans said:
Wow, that was some reading. Don't know what I learned but I am sure it was something, I will just have to think about it. As with everything, practice makes perfect, the more you do the better you will be at it. Just so all of you know, I grow trees and try to learn and practice Bonsai for the fun of it. I realize that I will never be great at it, I will be happy to develop 3 or 4 good trees in having fun. And if I get lucky maybe 1 or 2 will be better than good. The main thing is that I do it for fun and enjoyment. I have enough jobs and the last thing I want to do it stew about it. I appreciate the people on this board and them helping people like myself who ask pretty basic questions, thanks.

Jamie
Click to expand...

You did learn something -

"Most anything to do with bonsai is opinion period. The only universal truth about bonsai is that no water makes dead bonsai." - Al Keppler

;)

Grimmy
 
sawgrass said:
This being my first demo and getting to see folks respond to what I was saying and showing them was awesome! I could see the light bulbs going off in their heads! As if what I was saying all of a sudden made everything click! And it made me happy and proud!

There was nothing in my post was insulting towards any of my students that I have posted in this thread.
I was not hard on them at all... I have gone through this numerous times explaining what I meant by this and no one wants to listen.
My students were awesome! I loved every minute of it! I just wish I would have had another couple of hours to spend with them. And been able to of helped them more! Thanks.
Click to expand...

I wish you would have titled your thread
My first demo

And posted what great things you experienced and what fun it was to share with others.
And added pics of your trees and showed advice about "form"

Nope that's what Adam did.
I love his blog to death and you have the ability to do great things.
 
You're an artist Stacy, and a heck of a talent! When you write, you tend to stir the pot lol...doesn't bother me.
I agree with you about working "crap" trees...I'd rather learn, try techniques, and make mistakes on those trees than kill a great piece of material.
Keep posting your work...I, for one, really appreciate it!!
 
"But, everyone had months to find something, had 14 days to style it, I mean come on! And when one sees trees from beginners that were better than those who have been doing bonsai for 10 plus years, I just wonder what is happening? And before anyone gets made at me for what I am saying, you should turn instead that anger towards oneself. For in reality one is only letting oneself down."

Uhm perhaps not all people are as "genius" as you are. I got to my first solo (yes in a real plane) at less then 25 hours. I am willing to bet you would not accomplish this, so when the wreck of the plane gets scraped off the runway I would say. "I do not get it....i mean he had all this time to do simulators books and all". Thats how you sound in just a different context.
 
Sawgrass the best way to read the audience is to open the discussion with the group before beginning to actual work on the tree. Design your lecture with the first 30 minutes engaging your audience in discussion. This helps one understand everyone's level in bonsai and then when its time to begin working on the tree you show/teach techniques you feel the audience is lacking, which you learned through you 30 minute intro/exchange.
 
I remember one year our club was made the hesitant host of a renown master, when another local club had him for a guest and needed to find something for him to do. Recognized by one and all, an American Master, author of several books and------according to him; worthy of much accolade and acclaim. Insisted on this big introduction before he did his demonstration, expounding his accomplishments. He then proceeded to explain to everyone present that we were all a bunch of Mid-Western roobs that had no hope of understanding bonsai. I was floored! Understanding that we were also on the second floor I toyed with the idea of seeing if his accomplishments included the power to fly as well----but I thought better of it. I instead bit my lip and watched him humiliate himself for two hours.

I also recall two or three years ago a guest master that everyone knows and, kind of respects, came to judge our show and do a major demonstration. The demonstration was lack luster and, any one of our intermediate members could have pulled off a better demonstration and obtained better results considering the nature of the material. This too is an example of East Coast Hubris thinking that their state of development is so superior to anyone else, especially us straw-hat wearing Mid West roobs; we should simply be happy to sit and sniff thier flatulating emissions. Got news for you! I know enough to know when some doodie head is taking me for a ride thinking I don't know dog dew from shoe polish, and when it's my money, you can bet I wont be happy about it. Word gets around and if anyone is looking to make their living doing this kind of thing they sure should understand that regardless of what you think of the pig they are the bacon without which you will not survive.

My point in all of this is be careful of a little condition called Hubris; a kind of arrogant pride that makes you think you are better than those around you. In the end there is Karma and that too will catch up with you===== and I mean "you" in the generic sense.
 
Ok, I'm brand new here and I'll add my opinion to the mix. Yes, I think Sawgrass was a little strong on the " ...the skills that I have ...." thing. He's probably right, though. The written word does not benefit from the voice inflection and facial expressions present when talking to someone face to face. You can say to someone " You're full of cr$p" with a twinkle in your eye and small wink, and get away with it. That doesn't fly when typing on the internet.

Instant bonsai..... The origins of bonsai were to take a beautiful tree from nature and bring it back to admire it every day at home. Thus, instant bonsai. Doesn't matter how fast or slow a bonsai is created. If the tree is pleasing to the owner, that's all that matters. If a tree does not meet the strict standards of traditional bonsai, I say just call it a "miniature tree".

People apparently not putting out the effort to make a good tree...... Some people, unfortunately, are in bonsai because they were interested in it and it sounded cool to say they're into bonsai........ part on an elite group. They may not have the passion for the art that many do. It's something to do when the spirit moves them. I saw the same kinds of people in traditional archery. There were the ones that lived it all year long for 30-40 years and it was in their blood. I also saw the ones that bought the high priced bows and practiced the day before a shoot and not at all the rest of the year. It happens...........just human nature.

I'm not at all surprised to see heated discussions. It happened on every other forum I've ever been on. Human nature.

Joe
 
I think that Walter Pall started a thread recently about how to become better at bonsai by buying a lot of cheap material and practicing. Do more work, get better. Others seem to repackage that philosophy and, in so doing, perhaps aspire to become viewed by others as on the same plane as the original. You not only have to talk the talk, you must walk the walk, or the comparison is lost.
Why in hell cant people just be content moving forward at their own pace? Just because someone sees "ones self" as a leader, an innovator, a master, does not a leader make. No one is impressed to elevate that person as someone to emulate because they strive extra hard to be seen as someone to be followed.
Stacy, I think you have amazing skills painting pictures of trees. I dont hold it against you trying your hand at working with bonsai, but you might want to rethink the professional instructor part. Just my opinion.
 
lordy said:
I think that Walter Pall started a thread recently about how to become better at bonsai by buying a lot of cheap material and practicing. Do more work, get better. Others seem to repackage that philosophy and, in so doing, perhaps aspire to become viewed by others as on the same plane as the original. You not only have to talk the talk, you must walk the walk, or the comparison is lost.
Why in hell cant people just be content moving forward at their own pace? Just because someone sees "ones self" as a leader, an innovator, a master, does not a leader make. No one is impressed to elevate that person as someone to emulate because they strive extra hard to be seen as someone to be followed.
Stacy, I think you have amazing skills painting pictures of trees. I dont hold it against you trying your hand at working with bonsai, but you might want to rethink the professional instructor part. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
You have the first part wrong.
Walter started the thread in response to what I have said here, and he agreed with what I have said here. He also said that this is a very common approach to what alot of what the guys are doing in europe.
practicing on cheaper material, learning, and selling it to buy nicer material.
 
sawgrass said:
You have the first part wrong.
Walter started the thread in response to what I have said here, and he agreed with what I have said here. He also said that this is a very common approach to what alot of what the guys are doing in europe.
practicing on cheaper material, learning, and selling it to buy nicer material.
Click to expand...
So now you are claiming that Walter is emulating you. I see.
 
I don't think it's emulation. I just think it's corroborating what was said here, but in a more tactful way? Why is there so much hostility in the world of bonsai?:confused:

Can't we all just get along?
 
lordy said:
So now you are claiming that Walter is emulating you. I see.
Click to expand...
I am not claiming that Walter is emulating me... just informing you of what happened. Here it is read for yourself.

How you could have had a big chance at the 'instant bonsai contest' and really learned a lot:

I have read the epic thread about new rules and had a lot of fun. It really reminds me of the good old days on bonsai talk, bonsai nut and other forums. A man called Will Heath fighting the world like fighting windmills and getting crucified while hes is doing it. Not always, but sometimes Will would have said something that I had mentioned in his own words and get crucified for it. Why not me? I am still not so sure.

Anyway - lots of truth in that thread.

Now in my words:

If you really want to have a chance at such a challenge and want to use this event to make a big leap in you bonsai career do the following.

Go and find a nursery that sells a lot of possible bonsai material for cheap. Not that you normally would consider this king of material for yourself. It's just to learn and prove a point. Then
 
A lot was lost in your wording for me...by the context of how you wrote/started it. (By no means am I taking a tone...I sure hope none is taken. But I am who I am...and I can't change it. It's just how I felt.) Which I ended by a reply to your comment here) I stopped following this thread for most of the comments. For I didn't wish to see this done. Though I did read Mr.Pall's thread...since I didn't see his wording taking on the same undertone as you had. But in a tone Mr.Pall carries as his own style. I won't go back through to see what you've written...because of again, not wishing to see what you stated you were about to do.

But, I do wish to say this...I commend each member for taking on the challenge. Your ALL winners in my book. Just for taking on the challenge itself. I for one...feel we can never grasp the challenges each took on with their materials. Yes, they were judged and judged well...I enjoyed seeing Mr.Pall's take on each. (Judging of a tree I can grasp) Since listening to the video link Sorce attached of Mr.Pall...I could hear Mr.Pall's distinct accent in his text. :)
image.jpg
 
Uh, before you invoke Will, ya might wanna do a bit more research. Not exactly someone to emulate if you want people to pay to have you instruct them.

I've noticed that in the last 10 years or so, a woefully misplaced attitude that being exceptionally abrasive and obnoxious is somehow valued "opinionated cutting edge teaching"--even among some of the old guard "masters" (euros included). Insulting people in the name of "being honest" is part of that growing abrasiveness.

The best teachers don't berate or insult their pupils, but find ways to inspire them to want to learn.

Every teacher has frustrations with their students. Did you respect your tenth grade teacher for implying you were stupid in front of the class, or did you respect her/him for saying "here's what you could do differently?"

Simply having frustrations about the level of student competency doesn't mean putting permanent voice to those concerns online, permanently and publicy may not be the best way to build a business.

If you have no people skills, your bonsai skills are worthless as a teacher.
 
rockm said:
Uh, before you invoke Will, ya might wanna do a bit more research. Not exactly someone to emulate if you want people to pay to have you instruct them.

I've noticed that in the last 10 years or so, a woefully misplaced attitude that being exceptionally abrasive and obnoxious is somehow valued "opinionated cutting edge teaching"--even among some of the old guard "masters" (euros included). Insulting people in the name of "being honest" is part of that growing abrasiveness.

The best teachers don't berate or insult their pupils, but find ways to inspire them to want to learn.

Every teacher has frustrations with their students. Did you respect your tenth grade teacher for implying you were stupid in front of the class, or did you respect her/him for saying "here's what you could do differently?"

Simply having frustrations about the level of student competency doesn't mean putting permanent voice to those concerns online, permanently and publicy may not be the best way to build a business.

If you have no people skills, your bonsai skills are worthless as a teacher.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input!
I didn't invoke Will, this was Walter.
Also, you will note that I have on numerous occasions here as well as on Walter's thread explained my position regarding what I have said with my opening comments. None of which were aimed directly at any student on particular, or if they were, it was not intentional, but more to describe the frustration I saw within the teaching process of bonsai as a whole. Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Vance Wood said:
I remember one year our club was made the hesitant host of a renown master, when another local club had him for a guest and needed to find something for him to do. Recognized by one and all, an American Master, author of several books and------according to him; worthy of much accolade and acclaim. Insisted on this big introduction before he did his demonstration, expounding his accomplishments. He then proceeded to explain to everyone present that we were all a bunch of Mid-Western roobs that had no hope of understanding bonsai. I was floored! Understanding that we were also on the second floor I toyed with the idea of seeing if his accomplishments included the power to fly as well----but I thought better of it. I instead bit my lip and watched him humiliate himself for two hours.

I also recall two or three years ago a guest master that everyone knows and, kind of respects, came to judge our show and do a major demonstration. The demonstration was lack luster and, any one of our intermediate members could have pulled off a better demonstration and obtained better results considering the nature of the material. This too is an example of East Coast Hubris thinking that their state of development is so superior to anyone else, especially us straw-hat wearing Mid West roobs; we should simply be happy to sit and sniff thier flatulating emissions. Got news for you! I know enough to know when some doodie head is taking me for a ride thinking I don't know dog dew from shoe polish, and when it's my money, you can bet I wont be happy about it. Word gets around and if anyone is looking to make their living doing this kind of thing they sure should understand that regardless of what you think of the pig they are the bacon without which you will not survive.

My point in all of this is be careful of a little condition called Hubris; a kind of arrogant pride that makes you think you are better than those around you. In the end there is Karma and that too will catch up with you===== and I mean "you" in the generic sense.
Click to expand...

I know one is just putting this out there as a hypothetical....

but, if this is how I felt, that I was so much better than folks on this site, and that they were beneath me, then why would I take the time and energy to talk to them?

Why would I take the time to say on Walter's thread, that what I said here could of been said better. Why would I take the time to offer up advice to work on crappy trees to learn off of, then post crappy trees in hopes of showing them that yes, one can make something nice out of them... you just have to practice and keep at it. That it is possible with not a lot of money, but just determination, to create and have nice trees.
All this flies in the face of what someone who thought they were better than everyone else would do and suggest.

I mean, I understand everyone is upset and offended... but, I have had to take a lot of crap over the years here from some of it's senior members for doing so. Everything, from why do you waste your time with crappy trees, to me being stuck in a rut, to I am not doing bonsai, but instead are creating art. What in the world that means, I haven't the slightest idea? But, the list goes on and on and on...

I am a big enough person to admit that I made a mistake in the way that I addressed folks here, and I am sorry that I offended folks. I can see why they were offended and again I will say I am sorry, that I was wrong!

But, the last thing I will take responsibility for is thinking I am somehow above folks here, because I am not. I will take responsibility, however for being frustrated at the way folks are taught, for I feel it is wrong, and venting as I did.
Thanks!
 
amcoffeegirl said:
I wish you would have titled your thread
My first demo

And posted what great things you experienced and what fun it was to share with others.
And added pics of your trees and showed advice about "form"

Nope that's what Adam did.
I love his blog to death and you have the ability to do great things.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply, I did as soon as I was able to obtain the photos.
I accidentally erased mine and needed to get them from a friend.

Here is the link thanks!
http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/bsf-demo-tree-2015.19318/
 
There is a lesson I learned a number of years ago under similar circumstances. It is an old proverb but bears repeating: When you find yourself in a hole stop digging.
 
Not me either.

I'm pretty sure I understand YOU, (in the Sawgrass sense).

In person, I doubt this would have come off offensive.

There just aren't enough smilies. (I won't call them the other thing, but, know they affect people's shopping habits, yes, "smilies" , can be used as a way to get people to buy more. Imagine that truth for what it is.)

Anyway, about "way too many" , posts ago, I read into your passion.
I get it, it is just expressed, well, All effed up.

However, you could style a juniper in a way you are feeling and post it, and folks will understand. Maybe paint a picture, just don't do it with words!

Lot to be learned in this thread, just has absolutely nothing to do with Bonsai.

May I please stick the proverbial digital fork in this thread?

Sorce
 
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