New Bonsai Rule

[A Random User]

So, to get back to the point of the discussion. It was my opinion, nothing more, that the same trees everyone has been brushing aside. Is really what alot of folks should be working on. That if perhaps we stopped telling folks to don' t waste their time with them and instead use them as a tool from which to learn from, and in all actuality encourage folks to do so, I think in all reality, one would find that one's progression in the art would progress that much further.

I say this from experience... because this is what I personally have been doing for a very long time. And it has allowed me to progress a long way in a very short amount of time. The trick to becoming better at anything is by constantly doing! Constantly practicing, no matter what level one is at, but especially if one is newer to the art.

This amount of time you are willing to put into your art will obviously be a deciding factor on how fast one learns and progresses . This is not me saying one is lazy as has been suggested by hotter heads... but instead just reality. I thoroughly understand life gets in the way, and often one cannot devote the time that often one would like... but, you really gotta make time whenever possible, or it just will not happen.

I am still to this day, and will continue for as long as I work on bonsai, to work on crappy material... this does not mean I do not work on better stuff, I do, and obviously these trees will always take priority over the crap. But, once the work is done on those and I have some free time, I will always be found back working on the crap. Perhaps some of it will turn out cool, perhaps not... makes no difference really, does it? To me these are just like a sketch pad. If one is just doing work to better oneself, and try new stuff, they are perfect.

This is part of the reason why I have posted some of them in the Shoutbox Section as I have, because really they aren't that important, other than the knowledge I have gained from them. Which really is worth it's weight in gold in my book... because if I can do something on one of these then what I have learned can then be applied to my good trees. Besides, if I make a post about them, I then have to receive comments from folks about how I shouldn't mess around and waste my time on such crap...
If they only knew?

 

[sorce]

I don't know where the "excuses" even are. ?????

I thought the other day.....this instant bonsai B.S. needs to stop really.
(Nothing at all against the contest, I got mad respect for Vin and Walter)

I think we as a group seem to be glorifying it beyond what it Can be.

Unless one has a "bark wand" Or a "ramificationater" , you're kind of shitting on a culture way older than these States. That's borderline disrespectful.

My spring BSC tree has a 80% better chance of seeing 2016 than the fall one......it's dead.

Ain't no excuse to have Winter and Family. Out of 2 Depots and a thousand shitty possibilities, I got the best Azalea I could find. (For a reason maybe some people can't see) And did what I thought needed to be done at this time. NOTHING. Short testing the BVF flower removal technique. This is a long term joint.

It does all come off kind a rude bro!
Not great for business I reckon.

But Damn, 3 day weekend. Like Poink mad.....

I'm oughtta here!

Sorce

 

[Dav4]

I recommend margaritas, Sorce...it's a 3 day weekend, after all.

 

[A Random User]

Unless you walked a mile in the shoes of another...one can not fully grasp their thoughts, or challenges they faced in the material they chose...it sounds more like belittling to me. Which I for one am glad now that I didn't qualify...because I personally don't see the benefits of going down the path your headed.

You seem to be on a pretty high horse these days...maybe take that horse and head in another direction. Or...ASK of ones if they wish for your thoughts on what you are calling critiquing of their excuses. Your turning a contest ones held in high regards to the judge himself...to something that leaves a sour taste in ones mouths.

It is not my job to understand their thoughts... everyone has problems and issues as has been stated to me in some of the previous posts. I understand... sometimes things don't work out the way you are hoping, I get it... happens all the time. Just went through that all day yesterday doing demos... where it seemed nothing I did worked... happens, I understand. Has nothing to do with high horses or horses in general. You just put on your best face, do the best you can, hope everyone does not notice, and don't dish out excuses, you just try and do better next time. That's all you can do sometimes! I get told all the time what I do is crap, whether in bonsai or art. This is just what happens sometimes. You don't throw a fit and call people names cause they didn't like your art. You just take it and try to do better. This is life, sorry everyone is so offended... perhaps they should get the thicker skin that they are always telling others to get.

For the record, though this thread was mainly addressing the excuse part and not so much their art, thanks!

 

[A Random User]

Unfortunately, like Mike pointed out I am one of the people who can't see the tree in a piece of material. I have only been getting into bonsai for the last couple of years and for the last year have been a member of a club, though there doesn't seem to be that much that I can learn from there. I think what I am reading in your posts though is to stick with it, work on less than stellar material and learn how to do the basics beyond keeping things alive. I'll take encouragement from that. Maybe you can share some of your journey to how you got here as further inspiration though I expect you have always had the talent, maybe just not the tools.
One thing I can say, in both your scrolls and bonsai you are a very talented artist.

Thanks, I appreciate the compliments!
It is my personal opinion, that yes I think alot can be learned by working on these. Others may disagree, and that is fine, they are most certainly entitled to their own personal opinion, of how best one is to learn doing bonsai. However, I see alot if folks being told to buy expensive material and to learn to work on that. No where else is this excepted as a way of learning. One does not learn how to paint a car on a nice car. One does not hopefully learn to do tattoos on a real person... unless one does not really like this person, which in this case, they might be considered the crappy material, yet instead one is often told to practice on fruit, or practice panels of simulated flesh.

 

[A Random User]

I don't know where the "excuses" even are. ?????

I thought the other day.....this instant bonsai B.S. needs to stop really.
(Nothing at all against the contest, I got mad respect for Vin and Walter)

I think we as a group seem to be glorifying it beyond what it Can be.

Unless one has a "bark wand" Or a "ramificationater" , you're kind of shitting on a culture way older than these States. That's borderline disrespectful.

My spring BSC tree has a 80% better chance of seeing 2016 than the fall one......it's dead.

Ain't no excuse to have Winter and Family. Out of 2 Depots and a thousand shitty possibilities, I got the best Azalea I could find. (For a reason maybe some people can't see) And did what I thought needed to be done at this time. NOTHING. Short testing the BVF flower removal technique. This is a long term joint.

It does all come off kind a rude bro!
Not great for business I reckon.

But Damn, 3 day weekend. Like Poink mad.....

I'm oughtta here!

Sorce

Thanks for the post... I understand alot of what you have posted here and in some ways perhaps we don't agree, and that's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree with what I post, anymore than that I should have to agree with what they posted...

Not sure what my business has to do with it, or this conversation though?

 

[A Random User]

Here is a thread to one of my crappy trees that I have just reworked. I did quite a bit of bending on it and to me it is starting to kinda look like it might have a future. It was great experience, and to me I am proud of what I have managed to accomplish with it.
http://bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/the-thread-on-it.19270/#post-262660

 

[Lazylightningny]

Saw, this has been an entertaining thread but I haven't seen any real instructional advice on how we beginners can get better. I can style crap material for the rest of my life and still end up with a crap bonsai. I think most of our regular beginner posters (myself included) are dedicated to learning bonsai but sometimes feel like we're flailing around in quicksand. Developing the "eye" takes years.

 

[A Random User]

Saw, this has been an entertaining thread but I haven't seen any real instructional advice on how we beginners can get better. I can style crap material for the rest of my life and still end up with a crap bonsai. I think most of our regular beginner posters (myself included) are dedicated to learning bonsai but sometimes feel like we're flailing around in quicksand. Developing the "eye" takes years.

It has, I would agree... despite the notion from some that I do not contribute to helping others and only poo-poo on their work, I have in fact quite literally in the past made quite a few tutorials on how to do things, but just gave up doing them. Reason being that they just turned into another arguing post as this has. So, why bother? This is why I just fallen back on just posting every now and then in the Shoutbox... figure I can post a pic of what I am doing at the time, and get the usual no comments without having to take the time to actually compose a thread. Easier this way.

 

[JudyB]

However, I see alot if folks being told to buy expensive material and to learn to work on that.

Perhaps you are referring to my suggestions to people starting with better material, material with potential and promise and good structure to move their game from beginner to intermediate bonsai practice? If you are, I still stand by my advice. Nothing teaches you what a good bonsai is better than working with good material. Nothing gives you an eye like seeing one in person. Nothing can compare to seeing what is possible once you start working with better stock.
I'm not talking about finished trees, but stock material grown for bonsai. Or trees not yet finished, but trees that have the potential to be truly good trees.
I guess I don't see why you need to attack people for their approach to what you seem to see as Your Art. It's everyones art to appreciate and enjoy however they would like to. I aspire to great things in bonsai. Doesn't mean that everyone else is doing it wrong.

 

[vaibatron]

You are an artist that sells his work.. Therefore, you are a salesman. Whether you chose to identify as one or not.

Rants such as the one you are currently on, could in fact deter your intended clientele from working with you.

Though it may have nothing to do with this thread or conversation, you could be potentially alienating yourself from your market.

I'm a fan of your art and your work with living specimens, but not this kind of attitude.

 

[A Random User]

Perhaps you are referring to my suggestions to people starting with better material, material with potential and promise and good structure to move their game from beginner to intermediate bonsai practice? If you are, I still stand by my advice. Nothing teaches you what a good bonsai is better than working with good material. Nothing gives you an eye like seeing one in person. Nothing can compare to seeing what is possible once you start working with better stock.
I'm not talking about finished trees, but stock material grown for bonsai. Or trees not yet finished, but trees that have the potential to be truly good trees.
I guess I don't see why you need to attack people for their approach to what you seem to see as Your Art. It's everyones art to appreciate and enjoy however they would like to. I aspire to great things in bonsai. Doesn't mean that everyone else is doing it wrong.

Yep didn't say they were thanks! Actually sorry, I am editing to add more than just the one line... I don't see the need to attack anyone for what you say is my art... I don't believe it is, my art and never said that I do. I am more than aware that there are many different things that bring folks to bonsai and many different things that attract folks to bonsai, and many different levels of what is important to folks, so of course not everyone is going to seek the same things out of bonsai and there is nothing wrong with this. I have not a problem with folks working on better material. I just personally share a difference of an opinion to when and where this next step should be... am I not entitled to my opinion, anymore than you are? Am I not allowed to disagree with your version of how one should do bonsai, as you do mine? I think that having nice material is good. I think that yes one can learn alot from looking at nice material. I have just noticed that there seems to be a rush to buy great stuff, cause people are telling them they should, and I am seeing as I did first hand yesterday quite a few folks that were in my opinion not ready for this...
This is not to try and insult them... I didn't make fun of them, quite the contrary, I had just assumed that they knew it already, seeing that I have seen most of them at quite a few shows over the years, some have some really nice bonsai as well, the others you would of assumed they had been there from the creation of bonsai itself with the way that they talked... I learned my first lesson about doing demos, when i started getting a couple if questions that I knew weren't right... it suddenly dawned on me that I had a feeling no one as actually willing to tell me that they didn't know these things.. even though I had asked... so rather than re asking I just jumped off the stage below my tree which worked out cool since I styled a cascading tree anyways and worked from there. And started literally, showing folks step by step how to do things... the questions then began to fly! I had alot of folks come up and tell me that they really learned alot after and thanked me for it. So, there is

 

[A Random User]

You are an artist that sells his work.. Therefore, you are a salesman. Whether you chose to identify as one or not.

Rants such as the one you are currently on, could in fact deter your intended clientele from working with you.

Though it may have nothing to do with this thread or conversation, you could be potentially alienating yourself from your market.

I'm a fan of your art and your work with living specimens, but not this kind of attitude.

What type of attitude would you be describing? The one where I took offense at others making excuses, throwing around terms of instant bonsai in a condensating way, or the attitude that styling a tree in such a way is really not good bonsai? To which I wondered how can it not be if I am doing a first style on a tree? If one does not like what I have done, that is fine, but how us this not doing bonsai, or good bonsai?

Or, we're you referring to the part where an individual went out of their way to try and personally insult me? And trash me, If this is the case, then I am sorry but I did nothing to this individual, and did not deserve what was done. If he were to offer up an apology, I would most certainly offer up mine, but I don't think this is cool... I would never do this to anyone regardless of my personal feelings towards them might be.

 

[Paradox]

Now that I am home and having had a chance to cool off and re-read this entire thread, I am going to follow Grimmy's sage advice.

Congrats Stacy for being the one and only person I have put on ignore on any forum ever. I am usually very tolerant and respect other points of view but I have no use for yours after this.
I have now come to the conclusion that you have nothing worthwhile to share with this forum except tirades and insults paraded about as "advice".

Don't bother responding, I wont be able to see it.

 

[Eric Group]

You are an artist that sells his work.. Therefore, you are a salesman. Whether you chose to identify as one or not.

Rants such as the one you are currently on, could in fact deter your intended clientele from working with you.

Though it may have nothing to do with this thread or conversation, you could be potentially alienating yourself from your market.

I'm a fan of your art and your work with living specimens, but not this kind of attitude.

Oh Lord don't bring this one up again! Last year he went on a rant about how wrong it was that people got offended by what he said here and would no longer buy his stuff and they went and told their friends no to buy it either! Apparently the way consumers normally work should not apply to Sawgrass! He seems to think- even though ANY OTHER RETAILER OF ANY GOODS ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD has to try to avoid offending their customers to stay in business- this facet of human nature should not apply to his art work and his business. I have been in retail for about 20 years now and I learned early on a very simple rule- you give people what they want and do the best job possible, give amazing customer service, a product and price they can't beat anywhere else... And they MIGHT tell one or two people. But, if you piss one person off, they on average tell 15-20 in the first week alone! Let that simmer with you now... In a limited community size of people, how many of them just took classes in Florida from a guy named Stacey... And how many of them will read this forum, or have a friend who read it and told them about it.... If it gets back to ONE of those participants that ole Sawgrass came on here today an went on a rant about how lazy and stupid they are for ASKING QUESTIONS AT A BONSAI DEMO (THE NERVE!?!...)... Well, I just wonder how long it will take for them to all figure out who said what about who and I would reason this might impact the ole wallet a bit come time for them to pick their presenter at the next demo they have!

It is funny I was just thinking to myself how few shit storms we have had around here and specifically how well behaved Sawgrass had been since he returned from his self-exile recently... I guess he had just been hiding it all inside and decide to blow up all over the site today? Nice one man! Well... This place is pretty boring without some trouble stirred up every now and then I guess...

I was talking to john G a few months ago and he mentioned this... I have found it to be SO true. People can post pics of trees they styled, or pics of world class trees at a show... and get 2 likes and NO responses on a bonsai forum, but Stacey shows up, calls us all idiots, lazy slackers and insults everyone who actually WORKS FOR A LIVING, and it is at two pages of replies within a couple hours! Are we REALLY HERE TO TALK ABOUT BONSAI? Or do people just like to fight?

Lmao

Well... I will just step aside now, dodge that next turd being flung and watch the show...

 

[Eric Group]

What type of attitude would you be describing? The one where I took offense at others making excuses, throwing around terms of instant bonsai in a condensating way...

Man... I prolly shouldn't do this as I am not the grammar police, I am the KING of typos... But my Dad was an english professor and he would beat me down if I didn't call you on using this one more than once- what is Condensating? Something about condensation or... Are we supposed to be talking about CONDESCENDING? Because if that is the word you keep messing up... Man the IRONY of a guy posting one of the most CONDESCENDING threads I have ever read... DENYING he is being condescending, and then proving a couple times in a row, he doesn't even KNOW THE WORD....

AGAIN, prolly shouldn't have said anything... Just couldn't help myself... Nothing personal Sawgrass... I was just laughing about that one internally and would have called anybody on it!

Y'all get on back to beating each other up now... Where did that popcorn go!?

 

[A Random User]

Now that I am home and having had a chance to cool off and re-read this entire thread, I am going to follow Grimmy's sage advice.

Congrats Stacy for being the one and only person I have put on ignore on any forum ever. I am usually very tolerant and respect other points of view but I have no use for yours after this.
I have now come to the conclusion that you have nothing worthwhile to share with this forum except tirades and insults paraded about as "advice".

Don't bother responding, I wont be able to see it.

I will respond regardless... if you don't see it so be it. I am truly sorry that you were insulted by what I said. And I do apologize for this was not my intention. I just don't personally agree with alot of the comments and conversation that I have read and said what I feel. As was stated from the beginning that this was merely my opinion.

 

[A Random User]

Man... I prolly shouldn't do this as I am not the grammar police, I am the KING of typos... But my Dad was an english professor and he would beat me down if I didn't call you on using this one more than once- what is Condensating? Something about condensation or... Are we supposed to be talking about CONDESCENDING? Because if that is the word you keep messing up... Man the IRONY of a guy posting one of the most CONDESCENDING threads I have ever read... DENYING he is being condescending, and then proving a couple times in a row, he doesn't even KNOW THE WORD....

AGAIN, prolly shouldn't have said anything... Just couldn't help myself... Nothing personal Sawgrass... I was just laughing about that one internally and would have called anybody on it!

Y'all get on back to beating each other up now... Where did that popcorn go!?

Thanks Eric for pointing out I don't know how to spell very well... if you must know, I also don't play basketball very well either... this is why I don't proclaim to be good at either. I am not sure why the need to try and insult me here. I am more than willing to confess that you are correct. And sadly, my phone which does obviously have spelling and auto correct sometimes just leaves a fella hanging. Often because I am trying to type alot I just am not paying enough attention to the fact that I spelled something wrong. Thanks, for pointing it out though! Will try and do better.

 

[Bunjeh]

Sawgrass: A master does not hate his students. After reaching the summit of the mountain would you throw rocks at those still struggling along the path? No. Remember that everyone is at a different stage of development. For every Picasso there are 10,000 guys who just love to paint.

 

[A Random User]

Sawgrass: A master does not hate his students. After reaching the summit of the mountain would you throw rocks at those still struggling along the path? No. Remember that everyone is at a different stage of development. For every Picasso there are 10,000 guys who just love to paint.

I don't hate my students... or think they are lazy, or any of the other things that folks here are now saying I said.
Did anyone read what I have posted, or just read what everyone else said I posted?
If I hated my students, I would not of taken the time out of styling both the trees that I did to sit and actually go through each and every process I was
doing and try to explain why it was being done and what was the purpose of it and how one could to benefit from doing it. I didn't come anywhere near finishing the tree because of it... I felt that them watching me do a tree was of less importance then them actually learning how to do these things. I then because I didn't finish my tree and the whole purpose of the demo as far as BSF was concerned is that they would then have a tree they could auction off and make money on and recoup expenses... I then worked through my lunchtime, didn't take a lunch and sat in the room by myself styling the tree so they would at least have something they could auction off. I worked for another hour and a half, right up until the second I had to go to the next one. I ran into a lot of the very same issues at the second, and here again on the second did the same. I didn't finish till way after Adam was done.
I am not complaining... I enjoyed the fact that I was hopefully of some use, and hopefully really helped the folks... This was my very first time doing demos on a larger scale like this... I am not attacking, nor would I ever attack or hate my students... I just was and will continue to be puzzled on how it can be that a lot of these things weren't already known... There seems to me to be a flaw within the way folks are learning. which is why I posted this from the beginning...